Author Topic: Jewish Wedding?  (Read 1914 times)

Jem

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Jewish Wedding?
« on: August 27, 2019, 11:57:06 am »
I attended a Jewish wedding for the daughter of a coworker this past Sunday. It was a black tie optional event, and the outdoor ceremony was at 5:30 with “dinner and dancing to follow.”

The ceremony was lovely (it lasted just under half an hour), and the reception began with some speeches and cocktails and apps being passed, and then the dancing started. The father daughter dance, the mother son dance, a wedding party and family group dance, the chair dances.....and the dances were still going at 8:30. Salad had been served at perhaps 7:45 but there was absolutely no indication that dinner was going to be served when my husband and I said our goodbyes and left at 8:30ish.

Is this unusual or is this standard for a Jewish wedding on a Sunday evening? It was a lovely ceremony and the band and dancing was clearly being enjoyed......but what about the phantom dinner? I am accustomed to dancing AFTER dinner is served, not before!

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DaDancingPsych

Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2019, 12:59:11 pm »
I have not attending a lot of Jewish weddings, but my experiences have not been like yours. The set-up was very similar to Christian or non-religious events. Wedding. Reception: Speeches. Dinner. Traditional Dances. Cake. Lotsa Dancing.

I am, however, interested to hear from someone more accustomed with the faith.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 01:01:01 pm by DaDancingPsych »

lowspark

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Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2019, 01:24:41 pm »
I've been to a lot of Jewish weddings as I am Jewish. And no, that's not typical. Sometimes they will do a couple of dances like father-daughter & mother-son before dinner, but the bulk of the speeches, dancing, cake cutting, etc. take place after the meal.

Most of them go like this:
Wedding ceremony: ~30 minutes
Cocktails & hors d'oeuvre passed around while the wedding party does pictures: ~45 min
Dining room is opened and people find their seats
Wedding party makes their way to the reception, culminating in the arrival of the bride and groom
Often, the first dance happens here so that as soon as people are done eating, they can begin dancing
A brief welcome speech and the blessing over the bread and wine
Dinner is served
Dancing, including the chair dance and other traditional dances
Cake cutting

A wedding at 5:30 would usually mean that dinner begins around 7:30ish, with salad, then main being served table by table if it's a seated dinner.

gellchom

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Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 02:26:33 pm »
I bet I've been hundreds of Jewish weddings -- I'm married to a Jewish clergyman.  I live in a different part of the country from lowspark, which may explain some of the small differences in the way we see things usually done.

Sunday is a very usual day for a Jewish wedding, as we don't do them on Friday night or until after sunset on Saturdays (which makes a Saturday night in the summer pretty impossible). 

I've seen pretty much the timeline that lowspark sets out, but it's usually a little different in my community.  The biggest difference is that there is almost always dancing well before the end of dinner and even before it's served -- in fact, often the band or DJ is playing some great dance music as the doors are opened for dinner and people come in from the cocktail hour.  (In our experience, that works great -- people put their place cards and pocketbooks on their tables, the jackets and sometimes the high heels come off, and the guests go to the dance floor and dance for quite a while.  Often we start with the hora and other Jewish folk dances, in fact, and they can go on without a break for a LONG time.  It really gets the party going and everyone feeling like a big, merry group.  We saw that work so well enough times that we did that at both our kids' weddings.)

We don't usually have so many "special" dances -- usually just bride and groom, and father and daughter, which is joined by any other combinations (mother son, etc.), and then spontaneously by other close relatives.  I never see a dance for attendants.  Toasts and speeches can come any time.  I've never seen them during the cocktail hour, as was done at the wedding you went to; it seems like it undercuts the mingling function as well as keeping people on their feet while they are listening, so maybe that's why most people don't do it.

If I'm doing the math right, and assuming a 60 minute cocktail hour (sometimes it's 45, sometimes 75 or 90), plus a few minutes for moving everyone from ceremony to cocktail area and then to dining room, you all were in the dining room at most 40 minutes before the salad was served.  That is a little longer than usual, but if they were doing long horas and other "special" dances before that, and people are into it (you said the "dancing was clearly being enjoyed" at this wedding, which usually means the band keeps going on the hora until they see it dying down), it's not unusual, especially adding in a few minutes for a welcome from the hosts and blessing the bread. 

So it's not at all uncommon for dinner to start after quite a while.  It sounds like you felt this was poor hosting, and I understand why, because it's not what you are used to, but it isn't unusual for us.  I bet you noticed everyone eating LOTS of substantial appetizers during the cocktail hour!  Did others leave only 90 minutes into the dinner and dancing?  I might have worried that something was wrong; our receptions usually last at least 3 hours after the cocktail hour.

Anyway, it sounds like you had a good time!  Did you dance the hora?  Did you like the ceremony?  Was it your first Jewish wedding?  What other differences did you notice?
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Jem

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Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 03:02:47 pm »
It sounds like you felt this was poor hosting, and I understand why, because it's not what you are used to, but it isn't unusual for us.  I bet you noticed everyone eating LOTS of substantial appetizers during the cocktail hour!  Did others leave only 90 minutes into the dinner and dancing?  I might have worried that something was wrong; our receptions usually last at least 3 hours after the cocktail hour.

Anyway, it sounds like you had a good time!  Did you dance the hora?  Did you like the ceremony?  Was it your first Jewish wedding?  What other differences did you notice?

I wouldn't say "poor hosting" exactly. I was more curious about the hosting, which is why I asked. I didn't notice what anyone else was eating during the cocktail hour! The invitation said "ceremony at half past five, dinner and dancing to follow" so I just assumed it would be in that order (rather than dancing to follow.....and maybe dinner eventually).

We left at 8:30 because there was no indication at all that dinner was going to be served any time soon, and it had been quite a while since the salad had been served and the salad plates cleared. It appeared, to me, that we were firmly into the dancing part of the evening, and I currently have a broken foot so I was not about to dance. Also, no one I knew was dancing. I wasn't really watching the clock, but it seemed to me that the ceremony finished around 6:00, cocktails went until maybe 6:30, and then it was speeches and dancing with the salad appearing at maybe 7:45 (so an hour and fifteen minutes after we sat down for dinner). After two hours of being seated for "dinner" with no dinner in sight we decided to say our goodbyes and leave.

It was my first Jewish wedding, which is why I asked whether this is typical. Had I known the bride or groom I may have wanted to stay longer, but I was sitting with work friends I have little in common with and the father of the brides' work friends I have never met and likely won't ever meet again. After two hours my husband and I just wanted to get home to eat something and get prepared for the week ahead.

I don't usually stay out late on a Sunday evening, and this was the wedding for the daughter of my work colleague. I had never met the bride or groom before. There were two tables of people who work with the parents of the bride, and we were seated at one of those tables. No one from either of our tables danced because none of us are Jewish and none of us had any idea what was going on or whether "everyone" could dance or whether the people dancing were all family. There was quite a bit of chatter at the two work tables about what was happening, whether dinner would be served, what we were supposed to be doing. There just wasn't any communication and we were wondering aloud whether they just forgot about dinner altogether, or maybe the salad WAS the dinner.

I know that at least three other work couples left around the time we did. It is unusual, in my experience, to be out partying late into a Sunday night.

Rho

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Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 09:53:26 pm »
The fact that the food wasn't served---or about to be served anytime soon has nothing to do with religion.  Perhaps region?  MY 1979 wedding, in a synagogue, had a color scheme of white.  Non Jewish work friends asked me if all Jewish weddings were white. Nope--I despised the  brown color that was popular that season.

My sister moved to Long Island from Chicago.  Parties there start with dancing, salad, more dancing, a little more food, more dancing, more food etc etc.  I HATE all the waiting and stress eat more than I should.   Sometimes main course isn't until 11:00 PM.  When Sisters' daughter was married a few years ago they had a Sunday morning wedding so guests could stay longer and not worry about getting up for work the next day or staying in a hotel an extra night.

When my college roommate had a Saturday morning Church wedding and the party was a dinner---I had never heard of such long gaps of time between events , or a party not in the same location as the ceremony.
We all enjoy what we are used to.
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Songbird

Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2019, 10:37:00 am »
Typical Jewish wedding on Long Island: after the cocktail hour, dinner begins with the introduction of the wedding party, the first dance and the hora, followed by the blessing over the food, the salad course, more dancing, then dinner, more dancing, speeches and cake cutting, dessert, more dancing. The father-daughter dance and mother-son dance take place later in the evening -- I want to say after dinner has been served, but it's been awhile since I went to a wedding, so I'm not certain. 

gellchom

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Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2019, 02:13:03 pm »
Well, there you are -- it's not uncommon for "dinner and dancing to follow" to mean "dinner-and-dancing to follow," as opposed to "dinner, and then dancing to follow."  Of course it's not a question of religion, just of community custom.

You write:
Quote
We left at 8:30 because there was no indication at all that dinner was going to be served any time soon
although you also said that the first course had been served.  I'm not sure what kind of "indication" you might have expected.  Maybe you could have asked one of the servers?

You write:
Quote
There were two tables of people who work with the parents of the bride, and we were seated at one of those tables. No one from either of our tables danced because none of us are Jewish and none of us had any idea what was going on or whether "everyone" could dance or whether the people dancing were all family. There was quite a bit of chatter at the two work tables about what was happening, whether dinner would be served, what we were supposed to be doing. There just wasn't any communication and we were wondering aloud whether they just forgot about dinner altogether, or maybe the salad WAS the dinner.

I hear you!  I, too, have been at life cycle events in other people's communities where I didn't know what to expect (I nearly jumped out of my skin at the end of a Catholic wedding when a bagpipe suddenly blared out!) and wasn't always sure what to do.  We minorities are used to that experience; it makes sense that majority members aren't accustomed to it.  But it never occurred to me that "there wasn't any communication" or that there should have been, just because their community might do things differently than I am used to.  Sometimes I do some research ahead of time, or I discreetly ask some "insider" any questions I have.  I know I am always happy to answer the questions that non-Jewish guests have at a bar mitzvah, wedding, or funeral.  I'm sorry that you and your work colleagues didn't feel comfortable asking someone about anything that was confusing or unfamiliar.  I am sure that the family would have been delighted if you all had joined in the dancing!  What a shame that your foot was broken.  I hope it was at least fun to watch.

Once my parents were invited to a Cuban Jewish family's wedding in Miami.  Used to wedding ceremonies starting exactly on time, they arrived a few minutes before the time on the invitation.  There were no other guests there, and the bridal party was still in bathrobes and curlers!  Nothing started for at least a couple of hours.  That's just how that community rolls. 

At our Conservative Jewish congregation, a bar or bat mitzvah invitation usually gives the time that services begin: 9:00 or 9:30.  But unless they do a little research, some of the non-Jewish guests don't realize that it's the synagogue's regular Shabbat service, not a private event, and most people in the congregation, whether or not they were invited for the bar/bat mitzvah, don't come until at least 10:00 (the parts the kid does don't come before then anyway), and the service goes until around 12:10 (yes, people do go in and out to go to the restroom, get a drink of water, etc.), and then there is lunch for everyone. 

Wow, the family invited two full tables of work colleagues, just from the bride's side.  I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy the evening as much as you might have because you didn't realize that the evening would go late and the schedule on which the food might be served.  Maybe just chalk it up to a chance to see how other communities and cultures do things.  It's fun to see the variety.  You should see an Israeli wedding -- this times ten!  And next time, you'll know what to expect -- you'll even be able to help others.

Were there any things about the wedding ceremony that you thought were interesting?  What differences did you notice from weddings in your community?

Jem

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Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2019, 02:45:03 pm »
Well, there you are -- it's not uncommon for "dinner and dancing to follow" to mean "dinner-and-dancing to follow," as opposed to "dinner, and then dancing to follow."  Of course it's not a question of religion, just of community custom.


You seem to be taking an aggressive tone, and I am not sure why. At any rate, that is why I asked. If by "community" you mean the geographical region this is not typical, so I actually do think it has something to do with the religion and the fact the wedding was on a Sunday evening (which I understand is typical for Jewish weddings).

You write:
Quote
We left at 8:30 because there was no indication at all that dinner was going to be served any time soon
although you also said that the first course had been served.  I'm not sure what kind of "indication" you might have expected.  Maybe you could have asked one of the servers?

In my experience, once a course is served and eaten and the plates are cleared, the next course is on its way out relatively soon thereafter. At most (all?) weddings I have been to the dancing is after the food is served. Here, the entire wedding party was on the dance floor and no one was being served the next course so it seemed as though there was no intent to serve the dinner any time soon. I wasn't expecting any indication of anything, I was just surprised that it was not "dinner, then dancing" as in common in the weddings I have attended during my lifetime. Again, I am in no way saying this is "wrong." I posted asking if this is typical or unusual for a Jewish wedding.

You write:
Quote
There were two tables of people who work with the parents of the bride, and we were seated at one of those tables. No one from either of our tables danced because none of us are Jewish and none of us had any idea what was going on or whether "everyone" could dance or whether the people dancing were all family. There was quite a bit of chatter at the two work tables about what was happening, whether dinner would be served, what we were supposed to be doing. There just wasn't any communication and we were wondering aloud whether they just forgot about dinner altogether, or maybe the salad WAS the dinner.

I hear you!  I, too, have been at life cycle events in other people's communities where I didn't know what to expect (I nearly jumped out of my skin at the end of a Catholic wedding when a bagpipe suddenly blared out!) and wasn't always sure what to do.  We minorities are used to that experience; it makes sense that majority members aren't accustomed to it.  But it never occurred to me that "there wasn't any communication" or that there should have been, just because their community might do things differently than I am used to.  Sometimes I do some research ahead of time, or I discreetly ask some "insider" any questions I have.  I know I am always happy to answer the questions that non-Jewish guests have at a bar mitzvah, wedding, or funeral.  I'm sorry that you and your work colleagues didn't feel comfortable asking someone about anything that was confusing or unfamiliar.  I am sure that the family would have been delighted if you all had joined in the dancing!  What a shame that your foot was broken.  I hope it was at least fun to watch.

Again, I am confused by your aggressive and seemingly sarcastic tone. I wasn't expecting this wedding to be the same as weddings I typically have attended; I asked whether this sequence of events was typical or unusual for a Jewish wedding. And yes, it was very fun to watch! My coworker's toddler-aged granddaughter was clearly having the time of her life dancing, and it was a lot of fun to see all the people being hoisted in the chairs, including my coworker and her husband! The dance floor was packed, so even if I had been able to dance I would have struggled for space.

Once my parents were invited to a Cuban Jewish family's wedding in Miami.  Used to wedding ceremonies starting exactly on time, they arrived a few minutes before the time on the invitation.  There were no other guests there, and the bridal party was still in bathrobes and curlers!  Nothing started for at least a couple of hours.  That's just how that community rolls. 

At our Conservative Jewish congregation, a bar or bat mitzvah invitation usually gives the time that services begin: 9:00 or 9:30.  But unless they do a little research, some of the non-Jewish guests don't realize that it's the synagogue's regular Shabbat service, not a private event, and most people in the congregation, whether or not they were invited for the bar/bat mitzvah, don't come until at least 10:00 (the parts the kid does don't come before then anyway), and the service goes until around 12:10 (yes, people do go in and out to go to the restroom, get a drink of water, etc.), and then there is lunch for everyone. 

Wow, the family invited two full tables of work colleagues, just from the bride's side.  I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy the evening as much as you might have because you didn't realize that the evening would go late and the schedule on which the food might be served. Maybe just chalk it up to a chance to see how other communities and cultures do things.  It's fun to see the variety.  You should see an Israeli wedding -- this times ten!  And next time, you'll know what to expect -- you'll even be able to help others.

Again, I am not sure where you got the bolded from. I did enjoy the evening, I just decided to leave at 8:30 (as did several other people)*. My posting here was not "this was a horrible wedding" but instead, "is this typically what happens or was this unusual."

Were there any things about the wedding ceremony that you thought were interesting?  What differences did you notice from weddings in your community?

See my comments in green.

*As an aside, my husband is often the officiant at weddings I attend, almost always on Saturday evenings, and it is quite common for us to leave around 8:30 pm or thereabout because he has to preach early the next morning. So we kept to the same schedule on this wedding, actually.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 02:48:17 pm by Jem »

gellchom

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Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2019, 03:18:22 pm »
Oh, Jem, I am so sorry that anything came across as sarcastic or aggressive.  I absolutely didn't mean it that way!  That's the risk of no tone when writing on line.

I totally relate to the experience of things not going as I am used to, and I really did feel sorry that that might have lessened your enjoyment of that wedding a bit.  You didn't do anything wrong at all.  I was just worried that you might have thought that your hosts were being rude to their guests with their food service schedule.  And, right, you did not say you didn't enjoy the wedding -- as I wrote above, I was saying only that I was sorry that you seemed not to have enjoyed it as much as you might have if things had gone the way you are used to.  That's all. 

By "community," I meant both ethnic and geographic.  In my experience, Jewish wedding receptions in Ohio and California are likely to be a little different, but they are usually more similar to each other than Jewish and non-Jewish weddings in Ohio, for example.

Anyway, I apologize for how my posts came across and made you feel.  You are a favorite poster! 

I am still wondering what you thought of the ceremony. 

Jem

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Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2019, 03:42:28 pm »
Oh, Jem, I am so sorry that anything came across as sarcastic or aggressive.  I absolutely didn't mean it that way!  That's the risk of no tone when writing on line.

I totally relate to the experience of things not going as I am used to, and I really did feel sorry that that might have lessened your enjoyment of that wedding a bit.  You didn't do anything wrong at all.  I was just worried that you might have thought that your hosts were being rude to their guests with their food service schedule.  And, right, you did not say you didn't enjoy the wedding -- as I wrote above, I was saying only that I was sorry that you seemed not to have enjoyed it as much as you might have if things had gone the way you are used to.  That's all. 

By "community," I meant both ethnic and geographic.  In my experience, Jewish wedding receptions in Ohio and California are likely to be a little different, but they are usually more similar to each other than Jewish and non-Jewish weddings in Ohio, for example.

Anyway, I apologize for how my posts came across and made you feel.  You are a favorite poster! 

I am still wondering what you thought of the ceremony.
I am glad I misunderstood!

I thought the ceremony was lovely. It was outdoors (not in a synagogue) and the "party favors" were the yarmulke for the men that had the bride and groom's monogram on the inside. This surprised me because I always assumed that non-Jewish people should not wear those! We asked, and were told "wear it if you want to" (none of my non-Jewish coworkers did).

There were 12 groomsmen, I assume for the 12 tribes of Israel? There were six bridesmaids. I was also surprised that the bridesmaids' (and the bride's) outfits were not particularly modest. Lots of tasteful cleavage and bare shoulders (I actually brought a shawl in the event we were expected to cover our shoulders).

The handout (not sure what you would call this?) explained various parts of the ceremony. I was surprised to have the written explanation of the ceremony parts be far less religious than I expected. Also, the prelude music was a string quartet playing contemporary songs. At one point my husband was like, "They are playing Wonderwall!" I also picked out some Taylor Swift and other secular songs (no religious songs as prelude).

The actual ceremony came across as more religious than the handout and prelude music did. I don't recall specifics, but a lot of the traditions were described in the handout as being simply traditions rather than connected to a particular religious belief.

Both the mother and father of the bride walked her down the aisle, which I thought was nice (this is what my parents did for me also, and I am Lutheran). But all of the aisle walking was again to the string quartet playing secular music (I cannot recall what they chose, but I recognized it as top 40 stuff).

The parents of the bride and groom stood under the canopy (it has a name I have forgotten) along with the bride and groom. There was a lot of chanting, which was similar to some more formal Catholic or other orthodox weddings I had been to. The bride and groom did the circling seven times tradition, and there was the contract reading and the canopy included a prayer shawl that belonged to the groom's deceased father.

The dancing at the wedding was fun! I like the sort-of loose "we all know this dance" atmosphere, and the chairs were quite athletic at times. It seemed like everyone had a good time for sure!
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gellchom

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Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2019, 04:29:47 pm »
 :)

Glad you had fun.

Your guys were fine on the yarmulkes.  If the ceremony were in a synagogue, the polite thing would be for men to wear them even if they are not Jewish.  It is common for personalized ones to be given to the guests to keep, as happened at this wedding, but it's supposed to be more of a courtesy for people who haven't brought their own than a "favor," although people do keep them as a souvenir.

12 groomsmen has nothing to do with the 12 tribes (although I like that!) -- just the number they happened to have, and that is a LOT of groomsmen!  This sounds like a very big wedding (I already surmised that from two full tables of parents' coworkers).

Prelude and processional music can be anything.  One exception: you will rarely hear "Here Comes the Bride" at a Jewish wedding, as Wagner was an anti-Semite, and the darling composer of the Nazis.  There's no rule against it, but it's easy to see why it's considered a poor choice for a Jewish wedding.

You said the bride's parents both walked her down the aisle -- didn't the groom's, too (assuming they are alive)?  That's our tradition, as is parents standing at the canopy (it's called a chuppah) through the ceremony.  Using a tallit (prayer shawl) as a chuppah is also very common, but not universal.  The chanting is the major part of the ceremony, which is usually quite standardized, other than the officiant speaking to the couple.  There are so many rituals and formulas that a Jewish wedding ceremony must include (it's actually a combination of two old rituals, betrothal and marriage) that there are rarely any "extras" like solos, unity candles, poems, etc.  And there are some things that happen before the ceremony -- the bedeken (groom veiling the bride) and the witnesses signing the ketubah (contract), and sometimes other things -- that you probably didn't see (usually just close family are there for that stuff). You are correct that some things -- e.g. using a tallit as the chuppah, circling the groom, parents escorting the bride and groom, breaking the glass -- are traditions, some very ancient, not requirements of Jewish law.  But many are; that's why even a relatively secular couple's wedding includes so much religious stuff, not because of anyone's personal belief.

Next time, you will be the expert!  And I hope your foot will be healed, so you can get out there and do the hora.  It's easy and fun.
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Songbird

Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2019, 10:48:48 pm »
She walked around him 7 times?  I didn't do that, and I had a fairly traditional ceremony, even did the whole bedecken thing...

(That's a ceremony that takes place before the bride and groom walk down the aisle -- the groom lifts the bride's veil to make sure he's marrying the correct woman --- it's based on the story of Rachel and Leah in the Bibile.)

Very nice of them to explain the service to everyone, especially if a substantial amount was in Hebrew.
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Aleko

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Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2019, 02:10:06 am »
I'm curious about 'salad was served'. Several people have mentioned it as an understood thing, but I've never heard of, let alone encountered, salad being served as a separate event to a meal. (In fact over here it's quite rare for salad even to be a separate course; that only happens in very formal, old-fashioned multi-course banquets.) How does that even work? Is it a fork-buffet kind of thing (though I'd have thought salad was about the hardest kind of thing to eat with a fork only), or are people served seated? Is it actually salad, in the sense of lettuce, tomatoes, etc, or just a name for a plate of canapés? I can't envisage it at all.

Jem

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Re: Jewish Wedding?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2019, 08:50:31 am »
I'm curious about 'salad was served'. Several people have mentioned it as an understood thing, but I've never heard of, let alone encountered, salad being served as a separate event to a meal. (In fact over here it's quite rare for salad even to be a separate course; that only happens in very formal, old-fashioned multi-course banquets.) How does that even work? Is it a fork-buffet kind of thing (though I'd have thought salad was about the hardest kind of thing to eat with a fork only), or are people served seated? Is it actually salad, in the sense of lettuce, tomatoes, etc, or just a name for a plate of canapés? I can't envisage it at all.

People were seated for the speeches and first dances and then the staff gave every on an individual plate of salad, which was greens, strawberries, and maybe pecans and some sort of cheese? There was also bread on the table. Then these plates and the bread were all cleared and nothing was served for quite a bit of time (not sure how much time passed because I left at 8:30 and no one was being served any additional food.)