Author Topic: But you know that's not my Holiday. (Read 2813 times)

Aleko · « **Reply #45 on:** December 16, 2018, 01:43:09 am »

Quote

It's bad etiquette to assume everyone is of the same culture.

But it's also bad etiquette to exclude people, or treat them differently, because they're not of the same culture. How do we suppose those two employees would have felt if the management had produced a poinsettia for everyone else and a fern for them? Or nothing for them at all, on account of these are Christmas presents and they 'obviously' wouldn't want one of those? (But in fact, as Mary Sunshine Rain correctly said, "The gift giving itself is related to Christmas." If they were happy to accept an umbrella or a tote bag in previous years, they have participated in that Christmas activity.

And why not? I had an Indian colleague who would bring in a box of special Diwali sweets for the office on that Hindu holiday. She was the only Hindu in the office but all of us were happy to accept a couple and thus participate, however minimally, in that religious event, whatever our religion.

bopper · « **Reply #46 on:** March 12, 2019, 02:28:18 pm »

If they gave out evergreen wreaths with decorations, or small pine trees with decorations...you wouldn't think that is for Christmas?
If someone gave out potato pancake making sets, you wouldn't think that is for Hanukkah?

Hanna · « **Reply #47 on:** March 12, 2019, 05:20:55 pm »

I only found out this past year that two of my coworkers in England, one Muslin and the other Hindu decorate and celebrate the non-religious aspects of Christmas. Both said they happily do this for their kids. I felt kind of dumb for assuming anything about how they spend the day.

gellchom · « **Reply #48 on:** May 09, 2019, 01:31:52 pm »

Quote from: lisastitch on December 13, 2018, 01:27:41 pm

Quote from: gramma dishes on December 13, 2018, 09:41:26 am
Quote from: Songbird on December 13, 2018, 08:48:38 am
In my job I sometimes receive gifts from vendors. One December our vendor sent each of us a gift from a florist. It was a centerpiece created from pine branches and those shiny glass balls used for Christmas tree ornaments, clearly intended to be used at Christmas dinner. I'm Jewish. I thanked the vendor and gave the gift to a coworker who didn't do business with that vendor.

Honestly what you have described just sounds like an ordinary winter flat-surface decoration to me! Unless the balls said "Merry Christmas" or had pictures of the nativity scene on them, I wouldn't necessarily think of them as being Christmasy as much as just seasonal!

But the season is Christmas. Between pine branches (as if from a Christmas tree) and ornaments to be put on a Christmas tree, it reflects the Christmas season.

There are people of other faiths who do choose to celebrate the secular Christmas season (snow, snowmen, poinsettias, etc.) if they don't celebrate the religious aspects. However, assuming that someone of another faith is happy to celebrate the secular parts of Christmas is a pretty big assumption.

Accidentally hit "disagree" when I meant to hit "agree," and I don't know how to fix it.

I think that this is very well put. I know it's hard for people to understand, especially because many non-Christians do do some Christmasy things, but this kind of thing makes many of us feel uncomfortable. No, it's not "offensive," and it's not pushing religion on anyone, and, yes, of course we understand that the intentions are kind and a gift is a gift, at worst a slightly tone-deaf one. But it often still feels like pressure to assimilate to the dominant culture, irrespective of any religious content. Secular vs. religious simply isn't the point. I know people are trying to be inclusive, and in their favorite holiday at that. But many of us would rather be appreciated for who and what we are than being told that Christmas is "everyone's holiday," so we should join in.

In fact, I am delighted to be invited to attend, as a guest, a friend's religious celebration than being expected to join in a general secular celebration myself. To me, a poinsettia looks Christmas-y, even though of course not religious. I would not be comfortable decorating my home with them -- or holly or shiny balls or reindeer or Santa or any of the other secular Christmas items.

gellchom · « **Reply #49 on:** May 09, 2019, 01:43:06 pm »

Quote from: Aleko on December 16, 2018, 01:43:09 am

Quote
It's bad etiquette to assume everyone is of the same culture.

But it's also bad etiquette to exclude people, or treat them differently, because they're not of the same culture. How do we suppose those two employees would have felt if the management had produced a poinsettia for everyone else and a fern for them? Or nothing for them at all, on account of these are Christmas presents and they 'obviously' wouldn't want one of those? (But in fact, as Mary Sunshine Rain correctly said, "The gift giving itself is related to Christmas." If they were happy to accept an umbrella or a tote bag in previous years, they have participated in that Christmas activity.

And why not? I had an Indian colleague who would bring in a box of special Diwali sweets for the office on that Hindu holiday. She was the only Hindu in the office but all of us were happy to accept a couple and thus participate, however minimally, in that religious event, whatever our religion.

This raises an interesting point. And it isn't simple.

For one thing, fair or not, it's simply not the same to compare assuming or even sharing the dominant culture with sharing a minority culture. The same as some people argue (right or wrong, and please let's not get sidetracked on it) about cultural appropriation when westerners wear saris or kimonos but not when Asians wear jeans. There are rational arguments and legitimate feelings on all sides of the subject, but it's folly to pretend that it's all identical.

I also see a huge difference between what the employer decides is an appropriate gift for all the employees and what one employee decides to share with her colleagues. If my employer gave out tins of Christmas cookies to everyone, that would feel very different to me from a Christian colleague bringing in Christmas cookies for everyone, in the manner in which the Hindu colleague shared Diwali treats. And as a matter of fact, as I myself did recently, bringing hamentaschen (Purim cookies) to a rehearsal to share with my fellow cast members.

It just seems so simple. Why not just choose something that isn't associated with Christmas? If that would be a problem, if it really MUST be something Christmassy, then it really is assimilationist pressure.

GardenGal · « **Reply #50 on:** May 09, 2019, 02:47:15 pm »

Quote from: Gellchom on May 09, 2019, 01:31:52 pm

Quote from: lisastitch on December 13, 2018, 01:27:41 pm
Quote from: gramma dishes on December 13, 2018, 09:41:26 am
Quote from: Songbird on December 13, 2018, 08:48:38 am
In my job I sometimes receive gifts from vendors. One December our vendor sent each of us a gift from a florist. It was a centerpiece created from pine branches and those shiny glass balls used for Christmas tree ornaments, clearly intended to be used at Christmas dinner. I'm Jewish. I thanked the vendor and gave the gift to a coworker who didn't do business with that vendor.

Honestly what you have described just sounds like an ordinary winter flat-surface decoration to me! Unless the balls said "Merry Christmas" or had pictures of the nativity scene on them, I wouldn't necessarily think of them as being Christmasy as much as just seasonal!

But the season is Christmas. Between pine branches (as if from a Christmas tree) and ornaments to be put on a Christmas tree, it reflects the Christmas season.

There are people of other faiths who do choose to celebrate the secular Christmas season (snow, snowmen, poinsettias, etc.) if they don't celebrate the religious aspects. However, assuming that someone of another faith is happy to celebrate the secular parts of Christmas is a pretty big assumption.

Accidentally hit "disagree" when I meant to hit "agree," and I don't know how to fix it.

I think that this is very well put. I know it's hard for people to understand, especially because many non-Christians do do some Christmasy things, but this kind of thing makes many of us feel uncomfortable. No, it's not "offensive," and it's not pushing religion on anyone, and, yes, of course we understand that the intentions are kind and a gift is a gift, at worst a slightly tone-deaf one. But it often still feels like pressure to assimilate to the dominant culture, irrespective of any religious content. Secular vs. religious simply isn't the point. I know people are trying to be inclusive, and in their favorite holiday at that. But many of us would rather be appreciated for who and what we are than being told that Christmas is "everyone's holiday," so we should join in.

In fact, I am delighted to be invited to attend, as a guest, a friend's religious celebration than being expected to join in a general secular celebration myself. To me, a poinsettia looks Christmas-y, even though of course not religious. I would not be comfortable decorating my home with them -- or holly or shiny balls or reindeer or Santa or any of the other secular Christmas items.

Bingo - you're hit the nail on the head, Gellchom, and put into words what I, as an atheist (raised Jewish), have been feeling for over 50 years. I think that growing up in a minority religion, even one I abandoned while in my teens, makes you aware of what the folks in majority religions take for granted. Even among atheists I know, those who were raised as Christians are often fond of saying (and I'm sure they truly believe this) that Christmas is a secular holiday these days. Nope, sorry, it isn't a secular holiday - you wouldn't be doing what you were doing on that particular day if you had not been raised Christian. For you (general "you") it now might feel secular, but to me (and probably to other atheists raised in the Jewish faith), Christmas always feels at least slightly religious, even if in many households it is mostly about visiting family and sharing gifts, not about the "reason for the season."

Bad Manners and Brimstone

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Author Topic: But you know that's not my Holiday. (Read 2813 times)

Aleko

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bopper

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Hanna

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gellchom

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gellchom

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GardenGal

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