Bad Manners and Brimstone
General Etiquette => Weddings => Topic started by: violinp on June 13, 2019, 05:54:19 pm
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Ok. I thought wedding planning wouldn't be this...bad. Buuut, I also have a horrible family, so I probably should've expected it.
1. My grandpa. He's always been an abusive, alcoholic jerk, but the past 2 years or so have been particularly bad. Mom (his daughter) died 5 years ago, and I converted to Catholicism from being Lutheran 2 years ago. Grandpa is a Lutheran pastor, and was furious I converted, saying I now serve Satan. What remained of our relationship after his abuse, in my eyes, was now shattered. He and I barely speak, but I keep up with Grandma to make sure she's ok. Then Cabbage (my sister) converted to Catholicism this year. Grandpa reacted even more badly, and refused to even eat dinner with her when she visited them after. Double Bass really doesn't want me to invite them, because he wants us (and me especially, because I've been so abused in my family and by others) to have the wedding we/I deserve, but has said he will support whatever I choose. I really want Grandma there, but having the man who terrorized my mom and her brothers, belittled my dad and aunts, and has essentially given Cabbage and me the CD while wanting to pretend we all get along...is worrying me. I'm going to have a talk with them before the wedding that boils down to "If Gramps makes any mean comments, you will need to leave," but I don't know how to word it in a polite manner that doesn't make me a doormat. Advice?
2. There are relatives I have been asked by Gran to invite. Let's call them Great - Uncle Vic and Great - Aunt Ida. Ida is my grandma's sister, but I haven't spoken to Vic or Ida since my older uncle's wedding 16 years ago. They live on the other side of the country, and even if they didn't...Vic nearly ruined Uncle Bill's wedding when he freaked out that a reading wasn't from the Bible (Gran's other sister had to hit him to make him quit). Vic and Ida are even more conservative Lutherans than my grandparents, and would be, at best, deeply uncomfortable at a Catholic Mass. All of that combined makes it obvious to me not to invite Great - Uncle Vic and Great - Aunt Ida. The rub: I am inviting the other siblings (Gran, her other sister, and their brother) and their spouses, plus my Gramps's brother, SIL, and sister. All of them I am close to, unlike Vic and Ida. Is this bad etiquette? If Gran asks, what do I say?
3. We are having an almost dry reception. I say "almost" because Double Bass and I will have a ceremonial bottle of wine for the reception for a cultural tradition important to us (https://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/marriage/content/quaich-ceremony ). Is this rude to our guests? We will have 2 punches, coffee, and water with a BBQ lunch and a cake.
Thanks in advance for your answers!
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As to the wine, will you be drinking it in front your guests? I would vote rude, sorry.
Can you do that ceremony in private or with just a couple of witnesses?
Would Gran come alone? Could someone pick her up and escort her without your Grandpa, or would that make her life miserable after the fact?
Honestly I do not know any Lutheran people (my FOO is Lutheran) who would have a problem attending a Catholic ceremony. Your problem is not one of the various religious beliefs involved, but rather of a bunch of opinionated jerks.
I think you should invite only people who can be trusted to behave and either let Gran watch via Skype or have someone video the ceremony (not necessarily professionally, but with a tablet, smartphone or inexpensive camera) and sit down with Gran at a later date and watch it and tell her all about the event. Having acrimonious, insulting people at your wedding is no way to enjoy it. It is too bad if your Gran has to be absent but after all she has chosen a life with your grandfather and this is one of the consequences.
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I would say, don't invite anybody to your wedding who would be made uncomfortable/unhappy/angry to be present. (It is, after all, rude and unkind to require people to attend and formally lend their countenance to an event that offends their conscience.) That clearly rules out inviting your Grandpa, Vic, and Ida. If any of the rest of the family should be so dense as to ask why they aren't there, just tell them without fudging. As for Grandma, just ask her: is she OK with coming on her own? If not, do whatever you can along the lines Lilac suggests to make her feel included.
As for the wine question: I agree with Lilac, it is rude to make your guests watch you drink wine and not offer them any. However, the only things that are properly and traditionally drunk from a quaich are whisky or (much less usual, by the rich) brandy; it is, by definition, a cup for spirits. Drinking wine out of a quaich is wildly not-traditional. If you aren't going to stick to the traditional drink, you can just as well share a quaich-ful of sparkling water or Coke, and avoid the whole problem of rudeness. Plus, drinking wine ritually in that way might bring to guests' minds resonances of religious wine rituals such as the Jewish wedding ceremony or indeed the Catholic Mass, and it might feel a bit weird and wrong to them.
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1. I would either invite grandmother only or not invite either of them. If she chooses to not come without him, then it is on her and she is once again speaking volumes about where her loyalties are. I know how easy it is for families to view your grandmother as the victim and having to tolerate living with her husband. But she is really the person who allowed her daughter to be raised in a home by an abusive alcoholic. Yes, it is hard to leave a marriage, especially where their is strong religious ties or financial concerns. But people put their children first every day and make the right decisions. I'd give her one more chance to choose you over him. If she didn't, then that is her loss. I would in no way allow this man anywhere near my wedding. You can be very direct and unemotional about your decision. Because he has been so outspoken on his beliefs of the Catholic faith and Catholics, you do not want him to attend your Catholic ceremony and you are sure he does not want to attend either.
2. You do not need to invite your great aunt and uncle. If questioned just say you've had no contact with them in 16 years and really can't imagine that they'd want to attend your wedding. Did they not even contact you when your mother passed.
3. I didn't see anything in the link about the ceremony indicating the content was traditionally wine. I only noted a mention of whiskey being common. I would not have a bottle of wine for you and none for the guests. I would use one of the punches being served, or if they compliment each other, maybe do what was also suggested of combining two drinks.
edited to fix a typo
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I'm with everyone else. don't invite these people. It would only be a headache. Ask Gran if she can come alone. if not you can tell her all about it I am sure. Or like pp's suggested have someone tape it for her.
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I would invite Gran without Gramps. I am sure they'll both get the why, and Gran can come if she wants to and is able to. I wouldn't invite the Greats, because you're not close to them and haven't seen them for years. If Gran asks, that's what you tell her, and that you want people that are close to you, not just because they are somehow related (that goes for Gramps, too.) For the wine, I say substitute. It's the ritual, not the alcohol, that's important, and if as Aleko says it's not the actual traditional drink, then it shouldn't matter that you put a non-alcoholic liquid in (many churches for example substitute juice for wine at communion as it's the symbolism, not the actual liquid, that counts.)
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Don't invite the people you don't want. My DH was guilted into inviting an Aunt/Uncle that treated him like garbage for years. At our wedding reception the videographer passed a microphone inviting all the guests to record a personal message on video. I now have video of all these wonderful people saying nice things and this Aunt/Uncle looked at the microphone, made a face and passed it to someone else. All the while eating the food and drinks we paid for. I get to enjoy that image forever lol.
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Etiquette says you don't invite half a couple. But etiquette doesn't take into account of abuse. Invite grandma only. If she won't come without her husband, you need to decide if you can live without grandma at your wedding too. I'm sorry but there are consequences for the spouse of abusive people too.
Don't invite Vic and Ida. There're practically strangers after 16 years. And what you know about them is not good. Like others said, tell Grandma you only want people close to you at your wedding. You want people who love and support you there, not ruin your wedding with their intolerance.
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Honestly I do not know any Lutheran people (my FOO is Lutheran) who would have a problem attending a Catholic ceremony. Your problem is not one of the various religious beliefs involved, but rather of a bunch of opinionated jerks.
This. It's a personality problem, not a religion problem. Abusive people will always find something to be abusive about.
I think that having a dry wedding is a good idea. The one bottle of wine for a particular tradition, wouldn't bother me. If you think it would bother your guests, could you substitute a grape juice?
I think that refusing to invite relatives who can't behave themselves in church or at a reception is fine. Actions have consequences. Someone who has to be hit because he can't keep his nasty comments to himself in church, doesn't belong at a wedding.
Inviting Grandma, but not abusive Grandpa, could create problems for Grandma. Maybe you could have a talk with her.
You have a right to have a nice wedding that isn't ruined by relatives who have the emotional development of 5 year olds. Don't let people guilt you into anything that you don't want. Personally, I wouldn't invite Great Uncle Vic and his wife. If you think Grandma or someone else can get Grandpa to behave himself, take the chance and invite him. If you really think he will be a problem, don't. It's his fault, not yours.
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Oh, dear. I am so sorry you are in such a position.
The wine is the easiest one. I agree with the others; don't give yourselves anything you are not serving your guests. Substitute something else for the wine or do that ceremony privately.
I don't disagree with all the other posters about abusers forfeiting their rights to be included, and you absolutely don't need to invite any of them. But I know that it's often not as simple as that. Sometimes these decisions affect more than you and the abuser. That doesn't mean that you have to include anyone, but it sometimes means that you have to do some more work someplace else beyond "Too bad, it's my wedding!!" Not inviting a grandparent is a Big Thing. As Lakey pointed out:
Inviting Grandma, but not abusive Grandpa, could create problems for Grandma. Maybe you could have a talk with her.
Both for the grandparents and the great aunt and uncle, I think we can't really give you firm advice. Too bad your mom is gone; I think it would be really helpful for you to be able to discuss this with someone you trust who knows the people and the history. Are there siblings or other aunts and uncles you could consult? (Wouldn't it be nice if you could somehow know that if you did invite them, they definitely wouldn't come?) I bet when you talk to Grandma, you will get insights and ideas we couldn't possibly think of.
But we can give you our support as you work this out, and we do. No solution will be perfect, unfortunately. But if you approach these tough problems with maturity and consideration as well as self-respect, as you seem to be doing, you will make a good decision and carry it out well for yourself and others, too.
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1. I would either invite grandmother only or not invite either of them. If she chooses to not come without him, then it is on her and she is once again speaking volumes about where her loyalties are. I know how easy it is for families to view your grandmother as the victim and having to tolerate living with her husband. But she is really the person who allowed her daughter to be raised in a home by an abusive alcoholic. Yes, it is hard to leave a marriage, especially where their is strong religious ties or financial concerns. But people put their children first every day and make the right decisions. I'd give her one more chance to choose you over him. If she didn't, then that is her loss. I would in no way allow this man anywhere near my wedding. You can be very direct and unemotional about your decision. Because he has been so outspoken on his beliefs of the Catholic faith and Catholics, you do not want him to attend your Catholic ceremony and you are sure he does not want to attend either.
Gran will not attend without him - both of them are in ill health (she has to be helped to stand). Gramps is actually so ill they may not be able to come after all - he's recovering from pacemaker placement.
2. You do not need to invite your great aunt and uncle. If questioned just say you've had no contact with them in 16 years and really can't imagine that they'd want to attend your wedding. Did they not even contact you when your mother passed.
They sent a card to Dad 2 weeks after with some money - that's it. :(
3. I didn't see anything in the link about the ceremony indicating the content was traditionally wine. I only noted a mention of whiskey being common. I would not have a bottle of wine for you and none for the guests. I would use one of the punches being served, or if they compliment each other, maybe do what was also suggested of combining two drinks.
edited to fix a typo
Honestly, I would prefer punch. I rarely drink because I'm a lightweight, and I cannot stomach spirits at all, hence Double Bass suggesting wine, but...we're not going to drink the whole bottle, and it would've gone bad by the time we get back from our honeymoon in a week. I don't want to waste $$ on a bottle we'll get 2 glasses out of, tops. My MIL is having a custom quaich made, and I was worried putting punch in would seem...tacky? given the nature of the gift.
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Can your father offer any help? I know this isn't his side of the family, but surely he has experience dealing with them and may be able to guide you in how to proceed.
I will say one thing: Learn from my mistake. Don't have someone there you can't trust to behave. It's not worth the stress, especially on a day that should be focused on you and your fiancé alone. Seriously, I see all the posts about not having children at weddings, and while I understand, I can't help but think that I wish I had more kids at mine. First of all, because I love children in general, and second of all, because even the worst of them would no doubt have been better behaved than a certain few of the adults.
violinp, you won't get a do-over if it goes bad. Worry about pleasing yourself and what YOU want.
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I don't disagree with all the other posters about abusers forfeiting their rights to be included, and you absolutely don't need to invite any of them. But I know that it's often not as simple as that. Sometimes these decisions affect more than you and the abuser. That doesn't mean that you have to include anyone, but it sometimes means that you have to do some more work someplace else beyond "Too bad, it's my wedding!!" Not inviting a grandparent is a Big Thing. As Lakey pointed out:
Inviting Grandma, but not abusive Grandpa, could create problems for Grandma. Maybe you could have a talk with her.
This, plus their ill health, is mainly the reason I'm still inviting them both. Right now, my script looks like this:
"Hey, Gran; I wanna talk about the wedding. I know I haven’t broached the subject before, but I think I really need to. You know Double Bass and I are Catholic, and that our wedding will be a Nuptial Mass. I also know my conversion, and Cabbage’s, really hurt you both, and Gramps in particular. You both are completely welcome at our wedding, because I love you very much. However, I also want you to know we don’t want to hear any disparagement of our faith on our wedding day. On our day, Double Bass and I want to focus on being married and being with our family and friends, not differences of belief. I know Gramps can get passionate about his beliefs, but we want to make this clear: Disparaging our faith is disparaging us, and if he can’t keep from doing that, then he’ll have to leave. I hate that I even have to say this, but considering the ways Gramps reacted to our separate conversions, I wanted to make sure our ground rules were clear.”
I’m sure even this won’t go over well – Gran will insist Gramps would *never* behave that way, and why would I even suggest such a thing would happen, and Gramps will get into a snit. However, it’s about as classy as I can get, because what I would like to say is this:
“Listen: I know you’re going to tell me this won’t happen, but I’ve lived around you both long enough to assume it will. Gramps is not allowed to make any kind of disparaging or mean comment about anything on our wedding day. If he starts in on anyone or badmouths anything, Double Bass *will* make sure he leaves. There will be no warning – he will have to leave. If you want to leave with him, that’s your prerogative, but I’m sure Uncle Bill or Uncle Ted will make sure you can get back to the hotel if you want to stay.”
Double Bass has really helped me find my spine in a lot of ways, but I do want to, as an adult, try to have a relationship with my grandparents apart from my mom. If they fail this test, they’re out of our lives, to be honest. I don’t have time for toxic relatives to give me an ulcer from hundreds of miles away while I’m trying to start a family.
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I agree with the others.
I would never invite someone into a house of faith if they had no respect whatsoever for the faith that is practiced there, and no intention to even act in a respectful manner. At that point it goes from being "merely" disrespectful to me, to being disrespectful to everyone who finds value in worshipping there, and to your other guests who actually intend to behave and celebrate with you. Being simply of a different faith isn't a problem-- we can all act respectfully as a guest in another's temple.
If your grandfather believes Catholics are akin to the devil rather than "brothers and sisters in Christ" and intends to treat them as such, then he has no business there. If your grandmother is content to sit by him and allow that, then she has no place there, either. The same is true for Vic and Ida, who are not strangers, but actually known to be hostile to you. I get that Gran is going to have some feelings over this, but it is not up to you to use YOUR wedding and YOUR day to appease the bullies and jerks in your family for her sake. Her expecting that you do this is not even close to reasonable, or kind.
I think you should be direct with Gran maybe: "I know what grandfather and Vic and Ida think of me, and how they behave. I will not have that at my wedding. I give my first consideration to my fiancee, some it is OUR wedding, and I won't subject him to people like that."
You and your fiancee should be surrounded by people who love you and support you and wish the best for you. Not people you feel obliged to include who don't even care about you. They removed themselves from the circle of "your family" by their choices and actions.
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Can your father offer any help? I know this isn't his side of the family, but surely he has experience dealing with them and may be able to guide you in how to proceed.
I will say one thing: Learn from my mistake. Don't have someone there you can't trust to behave. It's not worth the stress, especially on a day that should be focused on you and your fiancé alone. Seriously, I see all the posts about not having children at weddings, and while I understand, I can't help but think that I wish I had more kids at mine. First of all, because I love children in general, and second of all, because even the worst of them would no doubt have been better behaved than a certain few of the adults.
violinp, you won't get a do-over if it goes bad. Worry about pleasing yourself and what YOU want.
I will talk to Dad before Gran - he knows how to defuse Gramps...unless he's really drunk, which he won't be at a dry wedding. But Dad rarely sees them now, and was bowled over by the way Gramps treated Cabbage (there was more I didn't tell, but suffice to say our faces were :o >:( ), so Gramps is a real powder keg.
Re: kids - Our friends are young, so few kids, but I'll be glad for the adorable babies! ;D :-*
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Can your father offer any help? I know this isn't his side of the family, but surely he has experience dealing with them and may be able to guide you in how to proceed.
I will say one thing: Learn from my mistake. Don't have someone there you can't trust to behave. It's not worth the stress, especially on a day that should be focused on you and your fiancé alone. Seriously, I see all the posts about not having children at weddings, and while I understand, I can't help but think that I wish I had more kids at mine. First of all, because I love children in general, and second of all, because even the worst of them would no doubt have been better behaved than a certain few of the adults.
violinp, you won't get a do-over if it goes bad. Worry about pleasing yourself and what YOU want.
I will talk to Dad before Gran - he knows how to defuse Gramps...unless he's really drunk, which he won't be at a dry wedding. But Dad rarely sees them now, and was bowled over by the way Gramps treated Cabbage (there was more I didn't tell, but suffice to say our faces were :o >:( ), so Gramps is a real powder keg.
Re: kids - Our friends are young, so few kids, but I'll be glad for the adorable babies! ;D :-*
I'm sorry - I wasn't trying to talk you into having kids at the wedding. I was just trying to say that I would have been happy if having kids at my wedding was the worst of the problems of that day!
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*IF* your grandpa does make it, don't make Double Bass be the one who has to kick him out. Appoint a groomsman or uncle or someone to be the bouncer. That way you don't have to deal with as much drama or difficulty and if Grandpa is running his mouth while you're busy greering other guests, he'll still be quickly tossed out.
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Honestly I do not know any Lutheran people (my FOO is Lutheran) who would have a problem attending a Catholic ceremony. Your problem is not one of the various religious beliefs involved, but rather of a bunch of opinionated jerks.
This. It's a personality problem, not a religion problem. Abusive people will always find something to be abusive about.
Grandpa is definitely abusive. But I don’t understand why, especially with his treatment of OP around converting, one can’t take his word for it that he doesn’t want to attend a Catholic ceremony because he believes it to be antithetical to his own beliefs.
I completely understand the others point of view that Grandpa may not be making sense as they understand Lutherans or Catholics, but disagreeing with him doesn’t mean he’s lying about this just to be mean. It’s clear that he’s just a pretty mean guy. His beliefs may still stand.
On another forum, a Christian woman stated she didn’t want any “graven images” or “Idols” basically Christ on crosses and that sort of thing. And a lot of other Christians got really annoyed with her stating that Christians don’t really believe that or no one really believes that anymore. I didn’t understand, she wasn’t pushing it on anyone she just believes what she believes and there is Doctrine, I can’t remember which now, that one could at least understand why she would believe it, even if they disagree. But they really dog piled on her. I couldn’t figure out why they just couldn’t say “oh that’s how you see that”. Or “I see it this way”.
That you believe he has misinterpreted something to feel that way, is sound. But suggesting he doesn’t actually believe that Catholicism is offensive to him in some way is just strange I think.
And all the more reason to not have him there, right?
I feel for you OP. Your Gramma has stood by him and continues to do so, and with that type of religious stronghold, where there apparently is no wiggle room, (how much kinder would it be if he said, I just can’t bring myself to enter that church but you go ahead and see our granddaughter get married) I don’t see her going without him.
It feels like you want her close. I wonder if you can get her alone some other time to show her pictures and talk about the special moments. I think it’s more about you sharing your happiness with her, than her watching it after the fact.
Don’t bother with the Greats. No one will notice.
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My MIL is having a custom quaich made, and I was worried that putting punch in might seem ... tacky?
Only if you, DB, or she think it is. Ask DB if you think she would, and to sound her out if he's not sure. You're right that her feelings about the use of her gift are important.
In general terms, no, it's not tacky. If you're not in any case going to use it for its traditional purpose, viz. spirit-drinking (and presumably she knows and is happy about that), then why shouldn't you use it for something you both actually want to drink? More, how could it possibly be good symbolism for the first drink you share as a married couple to be something you (both of you) don't like or feel you have been forced to drink? This is after all quite a new custom: the quaich of course is genuinely an ancient Scottish artefact but the notion of bride and groom sharing a ritual drink from one is fairly new, probably derived from people confusing it with a quite different traditional drinking vessel designed for a very different purpose, the loving cup.
If you wanted the actual stuff you're drinking to have some significance, you could perhaps cast your minds back - what did you and DB drink on your first date? Or on the day he proposed? If your romance was first kindled as you shared a Coke bottle from two straws, say, I can see sharing a sip of Coke as your first drink as a married couple being very fitting and sweet.
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For the drink, how about grape juice that comes in wine bottles. Wine is made of grapes in the first place. This way, you can have a few bottles for the guests too so it doesn't seem like you're serving something special just for yourselves.
I'm sure it's not the first time this ritual is done by people who can't or won't drink alcohol.
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1. This is a case where it's okay to invite Grandma without Grandpa. Keep your explanation very simple. "I am not able to welcome Grandpa due to his past behavior. Would you like me to hire a caretaker to bring you, or would you prefer to arrange to come with Uncle Bill or Uncle Ted?" If/when she tries to argue, calmly state that you are not going to discuss it but hope she will attend.
2. Don't invite Vic and Ida. If Grandma asks, tell her that you were not able to extend the guest list to include distant relatives you haven't seen in many years and don't maintain a relationship with. As above, deflect and avoid getting caught up in defending your position.
3. If you use wine in the ceremony, you have to offer it to everyone. (Regardless of what beverage you choose, it needs to be available to your guests.) How about sparkling water? Or using wine but doing it privately rather than at the main ceremony?
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Most of my friends would find it rude not to serve alcohol at a wedding. Sad but true!
However, I asked a friend and we both agreed; A ceremonial drink of wine for the bride and groom is not the same as drinking wine all night and not sharing with your guests. We think you should use the wine for the quaich.
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Hey, everybody! It's cabbage - I know, long time since I've been around. :-[
(bold text mine)
If your grandfather believes Catholics are akin to the devil rather than "brothers and sisters in Christ" and intends to treat them as such, then he has no business there. If your grandmother is content to sit by him and allow that, then she has no place there, either. The same is true for Vic and Ida, who are not strangers, but actually known to be hostile to you. I get that Gran is going to have some feelings over this, but it is not up to you to use YOUR wedding and YOUR day to appease the bullies and jerks in your family for her sake. Her expecting that you do this is not even close to reasonable, or kind.
You and your fiancee should be surrounded by people who love you and support you and wish the best for you. Not people you feel obliged to include who don't even care about you. They removed themselves from the circle of "your family" by their choices and actions.
First to the bold text: I totally agree, and this is what Double Bass and I have been saying to her
The rub is that he wants to be seen as the grand family patriarch that everyone seeks and consults, but then acts in such a way that no one wants to do so because they know exactly the kind of advice they're going to get: my way or I'll make you want to run to the highway after I call you everything but your given name. He wants to pretend like we love him so much, mainly because he doesn't know we know about how he treated our mom and her siblings when they were kids. So it's not so much that he wants to attend the Catholic ceremony as he wants to make sure he's there for violinp's Big Life Event. She's also the first grandkid (out of 3) to get married, so it's a big deal.
Additionally, Gran won't attend without Gramps not just because of health but because it "looks bad". For better or worse, appearances have meant a lot on Mom's side of the family, and even the appearance of a divided front would start the family gossip mill. We've all catered to the fantasy to keep Gran from crying, but honestly Mom was the big peacekeeper of a lot of this, and I'm not sure how much longer the dam is going to hold before it breaks, especially after the level of nasty I got on my last visit with them.
I'm her MOH, so whatever she does, I'm going to support her, whether that means fielding phone calls from them, or keeping Gramps' face full of baked potato, or physically escorting him out.
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*IF* your grandpa does make it, don't make Double Bass be the one who has to kick him out. Appoint a groomsman or uncle or someone to be the bouncer. That way you don't have to deal with as much drama or difficulty and if Grandpa is running his mouth while you're busy greering other guests, he'll still be quickly tossed out.
Actually, Double Bass wants to take care of it himself. He has also let his godmother (a former nurse) and our priest know we will have family issues, so they, along with Cabbage, will make sure Gramps either behaves or leaves.
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Sorry, but your gran is an enabler and manipulative with her crying and cares more about appearances than people being abused. That's not love, understanding, or support.
Invite her if you wish, but there's no way I would invite grandpa. If gran won't go without her husband, that's her choice. Actions (or non-actions) have consequences and this is one consequence for the spouse of an abuser.
I realize it's family and easier said than done. This is just my advise that you can take or leave. But I hope your wedding turns out to be a good one no matter what you decide.
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In the first place, Congratulations! This is your blessed day and it seems you have wonderful support in your MOH and future Husband and they have a plan of action for handling your Gramps (I'm sorry that you have to deal with someone like him).
I would not invite the family you are not close to, and your MOH said she will field the fallout:) So don't feel guilty about it.
Thirdly the Quaich seems like a lovely ceremony, I really like the idea of it and Toast wordings on the link you shared . You could keep whatever you are drinking in a small decanter that goes with your table decorations and theme if you are worried that the bottle of wine (or whatever you choose) would highlight the fact you are not serving it to everyone? I don't think it is rude btw.
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*IF* your grandpa does make it, don't make Double Bass be the one who has to kick him out. Appoint a groomsman or uncle or someone to be the bouncer. That way you don't have to deal with as much drama or difficulty and if Grandpa is running his mouth while you're busy greering other guests, he'll still be quickly tossed out.
Actually, Double Bass wants to take care of it himself. He has also let his godmother (a former nurse) and our priest know we will have family issues, so they, along with Cabbage, will make sure Gramps either behaves or leaves.
Honestly, this is no way to begin your marriage and a terrible position to put him in on his wedding day, even if he says he wants to handle it. It’s also putting your guests in a situation that is bound to be very awkward, and your family will feel much more pain if he is kicked out than if he is not invited.
I got married a few days; it’s an incredibly emotional time, and goes by very quickly. Any second of the day spent on sadness or drama is going to be very precious time wasted when you could have been just looking in his eyes or feeling all the amazing love of the people around you.
If you are not satisfied before hand that he will behave politely, then can tell them and anyone in the family that asks, that out of respect for your grandfather’s strong distaste for Catholicism you opted to let him off the hook and not invite them. It would be rude to invite one and not the other, so that’s also out of respect. Then tell any guests that ask “They were unable to make it today.”
If you are strong enough to buck your grandfather’s wishes and marry in a way that he does not condone, you are strong enough to do this. And this is putting your marriage and new husband above everything else in the world.
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This, plus their ill health, is mainly the reason I'm still inviting them both. Right now, my script looks like this:
"Hey, Gran; I wanna talk about the wedding. I know I haven’t broached the subject before, but I think I really need to. You know Double Bass and I are Catholic, and that our wedding will be a Nuptial Mass. I also know my conversion, and Cabbage’s, really hurt you both, and Gramps in particular. You both are completely welcome at our wedding, because I love you very much. However, I also want you to know we don’t want to hear any disparagement of our faith on our wedding day. On our day, Double Bass and I want to focus on being married and being with our family and friends, not differences of belief. I know Gramps can get passionate about his beliefs, but we want to make this clear: Disparaging our faith is disparaging us, and if he can’t keep from doing that, then he’ll have to leave. I hate that I even have to say this, but considering the ways Gramps reacted to our separate conversions, I wanted to make sure our ground rules were clear.”
I’m sure even this won’t go over well – Gran will insist Gramps would *never* behave that way, and why would I even suggest such a thing would happen, and Gramps will get into a snit. However, it’s about as classy as I can get, because what I would like to say is this:
“Listen: I know you’re going to tell me this won’t happen, but I’ve lived around you both long enough to assume it will. Gramps is not allowed to make any kind of disparaging or mean comment about anything on our wedding day. If he starts in on anyone or badmouths anything, Double Bass *will* make sure he leaves. There will be no warning – he will have to leave. If you want to leave with him, that’s your prerogative, but I’m sure Uncle Bill or Uncle Ted will make sure you can get back to the hotel if you want to stay.”
Double Bass has really helped me find my spine in a lot of ways, but I do want to, as an adult, try to have a relationship with my grandparents apart from my mom. If they fail this test, they’re out of our lives, to be honest. I don’t have time for toxic relatives to give me an ulcer from hundreds of miles away while I’m trying to start a family.
I would save your breath. You've described a person with a profound personality disorder. It's not in their nature to take advice from anyone, and especially not a junior relative. You said above that you want to have an adult relationship with your grandparents. Adults don't warn or lecture other adults about their behavior. They either accept them as they are and take the associated risks, or disengage. If it's not possible for you to disengage at this point, I suggest that you invite them, and if they come, deal with their behavior at the wedding as it occurs - with no warnings - just have someone hustle him out the door. Personality disordered people are incapable of honest self-assessment, and they live in a self-determined reality, so he might act up, confident that everyone agrees with him, when they actually don't.
You've been part of that family cult for so long, you may not realize that you've come away with fleas (check the outofthefog website for what I mean by fleas). If he behaves badly, he will look bad, not you. Personality Disordered people are very concerned about appearances, especially first impressions, so there's a chance that he'll be too worried about that, and too ill to cause public drama. But whatever you decide to do, do it with your eyes open, and don't try to control him. You can't.
No need to invite the other couple if you haven't seen them or heard from them in 16 years.
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Ok. I thought wedding planning wouldn't be this...bad. Buuut, I also have a horrible family, so I probably should've expected it.
1. My grandpa. He's always been an abusive, alcoholic jerk, but the past 2 years or so have been particularly bad. Mom (his daughter) died 5 years ago, and I converted to Catholicism from being Lutheran 2 years ago. Grandpa is a Lutheran pastor, and was furious I converted, saying I now serve Satan. What remained of our relationship after his abuse, in my eyes, was now shattered. He and I barely speak, but I keep up with Grandma to make sure she's ok. Then Cabbage (my sister) converted to Catholicism this year. Grandpa reacted even more badly, and refused to even eat dinner with her when she visited them after. Double Bass really doesn't want me to invite them, because he wants us (and me especially, because I've been so abused in my family and by others) to have the wedding we/I deserve, but has said he will support whatever I choose. I really want Grandma there, but having the man who terrorized my mom and her brothers, belittled my dad and aunts, and has essentially given Cabbage and me the CD while wanting to pretend we all get along...is worrying me. I'm going to have a talk with them before the wedding that boils down to "If Gramps makes any mean comments, you will need to leave," but I don't know how to word it in a polite manner that doesn't make me a doormat. Advice?
2. There are relatives I have been asked by Gran to invite. Let's call them Great - Uncle Vic and Great - Aunt Ida. Ida is my grandma's sister, but I haven't spoken to Vic or Ida since my older uncle's wedding 16 years ago. They live on the other side of the country, and even if they didn't...Vic nearly ruined Uncle Bill's wedding when he freaked out that a reading wasn't from the Bible (Gran's other sister had to hit him to make him quit). Vic and Ida are even more conservative Lutherans than my grandparents, and would be, at best, deeply uncomfortable at a Catholic Mass. All of that combined makes it obvious to me not to invite Great - Uncle Vic and Great - Aunt Ida. The rub: I am inviting the other siblings (Gran, her other sister, and their brother) and their spouses, plus my Gramps's brother, SIL, and sister. All of them I am close to, unlike Vic and Ida. Is this bad etiquette? If Gran asks, what do I say?
3. We are having an almost dry reception. I say "almost" because Double Bass and I will have a ceremonial bottle of wine for the reception for a cultural tradition important to us (https://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/marriage/content/quaich-ceremony ). Is this rude to our guests? We will have 2 punches, coffee, and water with a BBQ lunch and a cake.
Thanks in advance for your answers!
1) You are approaching it as "if you are bad you have to leave"....Another way is "If you are going to be bad, you cannot come." "Gran, I am having a dilemma. As a wedding is a happy occasion celebrating the joining of two people, I want people that are supportive to attend. Grandpa has shown he is not supportive of me. I would love you to come, of course, but can understand if you won't attend without Grandpa."
"he won't do anything"
"Have you ever heard that quote, "When people show you who they are, believe them? Well Grandpa showed me who he is and I won't have that kind of hate at my wedding."
2. Don't invite Uncle Vic and Great - Aunt Ida.
"And for the same reason I won't be able to invite Vic and Ida.
3. Is there a way to do the ceremony without taking a big bottle of wine and pouring it in front of anyone? Could you quietly fill the quaich out of sight and then do the ceremony?
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Yeah, I think what you need to do is talk to Grandma and/or others in the family. There are just too many moving parts for us to be able to tell you what will work best in your situation. Like, the aunt and uncle -- seems obvious to just not invite them, but if all their other siblings are invited, that could create very awkward situations for innocent parties, too. I'm not saying you should invite them! Just that I think you need to sit down with a trusted family member who knows the people, the history, the relationships, and the dynamics in YOUR family, not what would work best in ours. Not to mention that they would be better able to predict whether these people will even come if you do invite them! And they will probably think of things that we and even you didn't.
You are absolutely justified in not inviting them, and that may well be your best option. But as I can tell you know, being justified is just the beginning of the analysis.
You want to make sure that whatever decision you make doesn't become the focus of your wedding, the thing everyone will remember (Relative X excluded! Relative X invited and then kicked out!). That can be very hard (unless you get really lucky and you invite them and they don't come). Whatever you decide, you will have to take steps to minimize that. Conferring with other family members might help with that. You can do it! Again, it's not just a question of what decision you make, but how you implement and communicate it.
As to the wine ceremony -- I want to change my earlier answer. If you don't pour it in front of everyone (or if it's an integral part of the ceremony, maybe you could pour it from a jug, not the bottle; then it's not even obvious what it is), I think it's fine. Or if you can use grape juice or something, will that work? I know that's what we do in Jewish wine ceremonies when there are kids or alcoholics involved. I think I have heard that churches that do communion can use grape juice, too, but I'm not sure -- I'm sure someone here knows.
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there is an argument to be made that is it *presumptuous* to invite someone to your wedding whom you do not know well.
Our culture assumes that wedding invitations bring a bit of an obligation (OK, sure, they're not an invoice; but we also expect people to give a present and to travel, etc.).
So inviting people you aren't close to is often seen as a gift grab.
Tell Grandma you aren't going to invite them, because that would be presumptuous of you, but that you will drop them a note to let them know, or send them an announcement (which is formal, so maybe that's good; but some people see them as gift grabs and don't realize that couples who send announcements have read etiquette books and therefore know that gifts are not expected w/ announcements).
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Hi! OP here. Sorry for not updating sooner - I had to switch computers unexpectedly, and it's been a time trying to get all my accounts on this computer.
Regarding my great - uncle and great - aunt...most of the siblings will not be able to be there, in all likelihood. Uncle Roy (Gran's brother) is dying of cancer (had 6 months to live in early June, so I would *never* expect him or his wife to make interstate travel in October), Uncle Gene (her BIL) is completely blind, and his wife had a bad fall that it took a while to recover from. Uncle Ed, Gramps' brother, had polio as a kid, and hasn't traveled out of state in decades, and his wife is not very mobile herself. My Aunt Wendy, his sister, will probably be there, since she's in good health for her age. So, out of a possible 9 people, probably 3 will show up, though I would be over the moon if any of them did make it despite their health issues.
there is an argument to be made that is it *presumptuous* to invite someone to your wedding whom you do not know well.
Our culture assumes that wedding invitations bring a bit of an obligation (OK, sure, they're not an invoice; but we also expect people to give a present and to travel, etc.).
So inviting people you aren't close to is often seen as a gift grab.
Tell Grandma you aren't going to invite them, because that would be presumptuous of you, but that you will drop them a note to let them know, or send them an announcement (which is formal, so maybe that's good; but some people see them as gift grabs and don't realize that couples who send announcements have read etiquette books and therefore know that gifts are not expected w/ announcements).
Also, this - thanks, Toots. ;D I can tell Gran, "Gran, I appreciate that Vic and Ida want an invite, but I haven't actually seen or spoken to them since sixth grade, so it would be weird to invite them. I'll sure send them an announcement, though!"
I agree with Contrarian that, while Gramps is a mean old coot, his beliefs are genuine - he does believe I have separated myself from the fullness of truth, and so he was very upset with me, and later Cabbage, for that. He also happens to believe we converted to personally hurt him, as the man who baptized us, and our late mother, who raised us in the faith (Dad was agnostic when we were kids). Obviously, that's nonsense, and abusive as all - get out to even entertain saying, but that was his reaction to us.
Also, when I last saw them in person (before I moved to be with Double Bass) Gramps was all miffed he didn't get to meet Double Bass and personally approve of our relationship. :o ??? I'll give y'all a minute to process that....But, yeah, that interaction pretty much sums up our entire relationship since I was 14 - assume I'm too dumb to make my own decisions and need him to personally say grace over anything and everything I do or decide. Oh, and I'm a liar for not discussing my religious questions with him and just researching on my own. The church he and Gran go to doesn't even let women speak at adult Sunday School classes, so it's not really a shock to me (I forgot one time, and made an interjection, because Gramps was leading the discussion, and all the men whipped around like I'd just said something blasphemous).
This decisions is also really hard, because I DO have good interactions with Gran, and some with Gramps - it's just that all the good memories with Gramps were in 8th grade and before, before I knew he was an alcoholic. And, if Mom were alive, she would insist they be invited for family unity, and be the one brokering peace between us, because family togetherness was so important to her, though I know part of that would have been toxicity and abuse forming her brain, more afraid to leave and forge out on her own than admit her family can't hold together without being super messed up and tolerating Gramps, no matter what he says and does.
The other thing is that they are medically frail, to an extent. Gramps is recovering from a pacemaker being put in (which he insisted he didn't need until he passed out three times while Gran and he were home alone), and Gran has a very hard time getting around - even steps can be a trial for her. So, they may not even be able to make it, though Gran said, if Gramps heals on schedule, they should be able to come.
With that in mind, I have decided to still invite them, but calling them beforehand to explain the situation, saying essentially this:
"I know I haven't broached this topic yet, but I feel it's necessary to discuss this in the open. I know my conversion, and Cabbage's, upset you both, and Gramps in particular. However, we want to make this clear: We are Catholic. Double Bass' and my ceremony will be a Nuptial Mass. If you feel it's going to be too much to see me and Cabbage participate in a Mass, I am sad, but I understand. If you come, we don't want any disparagement of our faith. We know you believe differently than we do, but we also want our choices respected on our wedding day."
What say you all? Does that hold muster?
*snip*
As to the wine ceremony -- I want to change my earlier answer. If you don't pour it in front of everyone (or if it's an integral part of the ceremony, maybe you could pour it from a jug, not the bottle; then it's not even obvious what it is), I think it's fine. Or if you can use grape juice or something, will that work? I know that's what we do in Jewish wine ceremonies when there are kids or alcoholics involved. I think I have heard that churches that do communion can use grape juice, too, but I'm not sure -- I'm sure someone here knows.
I talked it over with Double Bass - he really does want to use something alcoholic, but understands that 1.) I cannot drink hard liquor and 2.) it would be kinda tacky to wave it in people's faces, especially given Gramps' alcoholism. We're going to buy some canned mead and pour it in the cup out of sight. That also cuts down on the possible waste of good booze, since mead is relatively cheap, and you can just not open a can if you don't need it.
We use wine in Communion, but the people only consume the wafers at Mass at our parish, and the priest alone drinks from the cup.
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I think you're on the right track, violinp.
It's a lot to sort out with a long background/history with these people and you've been getting good advice here.
I like your wording to Gran and Gramp. Can you talk to them both at the same time? Instead of putting Gran in the middle? So that Gramp hears the (stern! yet loving ;)) words directly from you?
Vic and Ida? I agree with TootsNYC.
Inviting all the other relatives? Remember, this is not Gran's family reunion. It is your wedding. Invite whomever you choose.
Stay strong violinp!
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You have gotten great advice from the other members, and I just want to say, may you have a lovely wedding and many happy years together.
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It's easy for us to sit here, removed from the situation and say "don't invite them! don't invite them!" but you have all the complexities of the real relationships and history to navigate, and I totally understand your choice to invite them to your wedding. :)
If I may make one further suggestion: consider letting a trusted friend or two know that Gramp's behavior can be unpredictable, and have them act as an advocate, ready to run interference for you?
I hope your wedding is absolutely wonderful and worry-free for both of you!
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If I may make one further suggestion: consider letting a trusted friend or two know that Gramp's behavior can be unpredictable, and have them act as an advocate, ready to run interference for you?
I really like this thought. Taking the stress off of you and your fiancee.
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I like your wording, violin p. And i might add: "And if you find you cannot behave on my wedding day, or if Gramps gets into it with anyone, he WILL be escorted out." Or something similar. And if Gramps does get up to shenanigans have a designated someone follow through on that policy.
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Your plans and your wording sound good. In my family, not inviting a grandparent would be considered pretty extreme. I had an uncle who was a serious alcoholic. He was sometimes pretty ornery when he was drunk. When one of his children got married, there was a lot of concern about how he would act. He managed to behave himself through the church service and the reception. It sounds like you are making the decisions that are best for you and your fiance, who sounds like a wonderful person.
This decisions is also really hard, because I DO have good interactions with Gran, and some with Gramps - it's just that all the good memories with Gramps were in 8th grade and before, before I knew he was an alcoholic.
That almost made me cry. One of the hardest things about growing up is finding out that the adults in your life have feet of clay. It really hurts to see someone you respected behave the way substance abusers behave.
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Your plans and your wording sound good. In my family, not inviting a grandparent would be considered pretty extreme. I had an uncle who was a serious alcoholic. He was sometimes pretty ornery when he was drunk. When one of his children got married, there was a lot of concern about how he would act. He managed to behave himself through the church service and the reception. It sounds like you are making the decisions that are best for you and your fiance, who sounds like a wonderful person.
This decisions is also really hard, because I DO have good interactions with Gran, and some with Gramps - it's just that all the good memories with Gramps were in 8th grade and before, before I knew he was an alcoholic.
That almost made me cry. One of the hardest things about growing up is finding out that the adults in your life have feet of clay. It really hurts to see someone you respected behave the way substance abusers behave.
Is there someone who could have a word with Gramps, and say that "violinp loves you, but when you have a drink, your behaviour could be enough to make her want to leave you out of her wedding"? It won't change his behaviour, but if he could stay off the alcohol for a while, at least you might have better memories if he does attend.
I have known a few serious drinkers who can stay sober for most/all of an evening [not sure they'd make it to midnight]. Knowing they needed to, did make a difference. Your Gramps may be too far gone for that to be an option.
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Hi, everyone!
I'm sorry I haven't updated in a long time - wedding planning has gotten super crazy!
I did have a talk with Gran and Gramps, with Double Bass there in case they decided to get nasty. I decided not to even bring up the stickiness of my great - uncle and great - aunt not being invited, and focus on their personal behavior. This is the gist of what I said:
"I just wanted to make sure you knew Double Bass and I will be having a Catholic wedding Mass. I know my conversion was hard on you, so I just wanted to make sure you knew that. And, because of comments you've made in the past, I wanted to make sure it was clear disparagement of our faith will not be tolerated."
They seemed...taken aback. My grandma made noises of "Of course it's your wedding. We wouldn't choose it, but it's your wedding, so..." and I got off the phone feeling okay...
And then the PA texts from Gran came in. How could I think they would do that? They would always respect me... yadda yadda. All hogwash I've heard before that means basically nothing, because Gramps is allowed to run roughshod no matter what and no one addresses the elephant in the room. I was annoyed, but expected it.
But apparently Uncle Ted got in on the fray too. I sent out texts to both Uncle Bill and Uncle Ted, and Uncle Ted felt the need to scold me for talking to my grandparents that way, because "you know your grandma loves you, right?" and "well, your grandpa is Lutheran, so you have to expect that kind of talk from him" Not. Even. Kidding. Yes, I told him exactly what his father said to me. Keeping the peace is more important than being honest about what cruelty is, I guess. :'(
I felt like a massive failure, like all I'd done was just make the entire family mad at me, and accomplished nothing other than pot - stirring. But Double Bass was not having that.
He said, "I am immensely proud of you for what you did. You said exactly what you needed to say, and you didn't get emotional - you just set your boundaries. As far as I'm concerned, today was a victory. You were far classier to them than I would have been. You knew what the worst case scenario could have been - them all immediately cutting you off. And that didn't happen. So what if they're mad? That just proves you're right."
And, as much as he's right...I still feel bad for making them mad at me, and for disrupting the peace. Does that make sense?
And now Double Bass has his own family drama to deal with. His parents nearly had a hissy over having skull table decorations and almost threatened not to come to the reception. Of all the childish things...at least we're bonding over boneheaded family.
We decided to just forgo saying anything about Vic and Ida unless asked. There's no reason to pre-emptively poke the bear, and if Gran gets mad, oh well. It's likely that Gramps is far too frail to make the trip up here anyway, and Gran won't go without him if he's that frail (which I totally understand and would probably do the same in her position), so they may not even be able to be here and pass judgement.
Something else that affects things - my dad got remarried this year. My grandparents have never met his wife, and didn't know he was seeing someone...because his now-wife is close to my age and Jewish. My agnostic dad has converted to Judaism because of her, and they're really good together...but my grandparents would be hateful toward her because of her age and religion. If my grandparents come, my dad will come, but not bring his wife. If they don't come...Dad and his wife will both come. To be perfectly honest, I would prefer my dad and his wife both over my crazy grandparents, as well as think Dad is childish for not at least not telling them he's dating and then married, but he's an adult, and I am not going to parent my own father. I secretly hope my grandparents have to send their regrets because I feel as though it would be much more enjoyable and less tense dancing around things, but I don't get to pick and choose those things.
Again, thank you all for your advice! Now I just need to worry about making sure my dress fits and that everything's set for the ceremony and reception. I can't believe that tomorrow is 2 months until my wedding!
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I first like your post (Well done for standing up to them!). And then I saw the push back that you predicted. I'm sorry for that. I do hope you have a wonderful time up to the wedding, that it is special. Hugs
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I know you don't want to hear this and hopefully I'll be wrong, but I think if you invite your grandfather, he and all his enablers (the biggest one is your gran) will ruin your wedding. Your uncles came right out and say he *will* act out because that's the way he his so accept it.
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Sigh. That's not the "way Lutherans are" either.
My current minister is Lutheran (even though I'm not - long story), and she'd never treat other faiths this way.
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And, as much as he's right...I still feel bad for making them mad at me, and for disrupting the peace. Does that make sense?
Totally. I'm sure everybody here will get that. Just don't let this 100% natural feeling get the bettor of you.
And now Double Bass has his own family drama to deal with. His parents nearly had a hissy over having skull table decorations and almost threatened not to come to the reception. Of all the childish things...at least we're bonding over boneheaded family.
Of course I've no way of knowing how OTT the hissy fit was, or how foolishly expressed, but I have to say that skull table decorations at a wedding reception would at least disconcert, if not outright upset, a lot of conventionally-minded people. Are these decorations really important enough to you and Double Bass to risk making your guests uncomfortable?
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First, don't feel bad about disrupting the peace. It isn't you, it's them.
Second, I'm not sure how large your wedding will be, but if possible, I would have Gramps seated as far away from you as possible for the ceremony and the dinner so that you are less likely to hear whatever comes out of his mouth.
Third, don't listen to your uncles. You are an adult. If you change your religion, that is your right. There is no justification for Gramps being rude at your wedding.
These people need to understand that if they continue down this path, you will probably lessen your contact with them. If they want to have a relationship with you and your new family, including any children that you may have, they need to learn to play nice.
Have a nice wedding. Keep in mind that no wedding is perfect. There are always little glitches, so even if Gramps makes a couple of comments, ignore him and enjoy yourself. The world is full of happy couples who've managed to get through their wedding with at least one alcoholic or misbehaving relative. The chances that neither the bride or groom has a jerk in their family is slim.
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well, your grandpa is Lutheran, so you have to expect that kind of talk from him
No. Just no.
I've been Lutheran my entire adult life; my husband is born and bred Lutheran. Our kids were raised Lutheran. Our son is now non-denominational. While we (privately, between the two of us) disagree with the church asking him to be re-baptized, it is MUCH more important to us that he is a Christian again. If our daughter were to convert to Catholicism, we'd be enormously surprised, but again, glad that she was finding a faith path that worked for her.
So, no, you do not need to expect that kind of talk from Lutherans!
Good luck with your wedding and the possible drama!
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And now Double Bass has his own family drama to deal with. His parents nearly had a hissy over having skull table decorations and almost threatened not to come to the reception. Of all the childish things...at least we're bonding over boneheaded family.
Whoa! Are you my Niece? While the rest of the family drama doesn't fit with my family, my Niece is getting married on Halloween (2 months away ;)) and will have skulls, skeletons, spider webs and all that decorating the reception hall.
In my opinion, that's all in fun. I honestly don't know what religion Niece and Fiancee follow, and I'm pretty sure that everybody invited knows her/him well enough to understand that this is the way they flow.
However, from your OP:
Grandpa is a Lutheran pastor, and was furious I converted, saying I now serve Satan.
I'm thinking that skulls on the table will most definitely bring an outburst from your grandfather, redefining that you serve Satan, and will (probably) denounce you and all of yours in a very public way. From what you posted, I don't think that anybody would be able to stop him from his preaching moment.
Do you really want that at your wedding?
If my grandparents come, my dad will come, but not bring his wife. If they don't come...Dad and his wife will both come. To be perfectly honest, I would prefer my dad and his wife both over my crazy grandparents,
This really makes me sad.
All I can give you is (((HUGS))) at this point. Since the grandparents were already invited, you can't really rescind the invitation. Or can you? Since you feel (how sure are you about this feeling?) that you will be cut off anyway?
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I think I would disinvite my grandparents, if it meant my dad not bringing his wife to my wedding [assuming you get on OK with her, and her non-attendance wouldn't be a "bonus"].
I would like, gently, to take exception to your description of your dad as "childish" for not telling your grandparents he was dating/has married again: from what you've described of your grandparents, I can't imagine your dad having any relationship other than a very strained one, and if all three of them aren't close, it's really none of his former in-laws business whether he dates/marries or not, surely?
Do the grandparents know, yet, about your stepmother? I would be sorely tempted to mention "Dad is bringing his young(er), Jewish, bride" just after I tell them about the skull* table decorations, and if that provoked an almighty flounce from the g'parents, well 'so be it'. But that's just me at 53 no longer worrying about appreasing the unreasonable. :-\
You are not in the wrong, and people who go out of their way to make you feel that way are in the wrong, violinp, so please pay them no need.
* I'm guessing it's a Hallowe'en theme? Not some form of Catholicism I'm not aware of...
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And now Double Bass has his own family drama to deal with. His parents nearly had a hissy over having skull table decorations and almost threatened not to come to the reception. Of all the childish things...at least we're bonding over boneheaded family.
Put everyone on an information diet about the wedding plans...
If someone threatens not to come...you say "Sorry to hear that, we'll miss you."
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Soooo... an update!
I know I spent a long time away, but wedding stuff, plus work has made things super hectic! We're 16 days away, and I'm so excited to be Mrs. Double Bass! ...I mean, I'll still be violinp on here, but you know what I mean, lol
So, an update on the invite situation: My grandparents are not coming. My grandfather is still too ill from his pacemaker surgery to travel that long, and he can't walk or stand for more than a couple of minutes without needing to sit. It would be pure torture for him. While I'm sad my grandma can't come, I'm secretly glad they don't have an opportunity to make my wedding day more stressful than I'm sure it will already be. Gran has yet to ask about her sister and BIL being invited, so I'm sure I'm safe on that score.
My MIL has calmed down considerably on the topic of the skulls - I think she was just stressing out over the wedding and just freaked at that particular moment. My PIL are genuinely good and wonderful people - my MIL just gets weird about things she percieves as "dark."
I think I would disinvite my grandparents, if it meant my dad not bringing his wife to my wedding [assuming you get on OK with her, and her non-attendance wouldn't be a "bonus"].
I would like, gently, to take exception to your description of your dad as "childish" for not telling your grandparents he was dating/has married again: from what you've described of your grandparents, I can't imagine your dad having any relationship other than a very strained one, and if all three of them aren't close, it's really none of his former in-laws business whether he dates/marries or not, surely?
Do the grandparents know, yet, about your stepmother? I would be sorely tempted to mention "Dad is bringing his young(er), Jewish, bride" just after I tell them about the skull* table decorations, and if that provoked an almighty flounce from the g'parents, well 'so be it'. But that's just me at 53 no longer worrying about appreasing the unreasonable. :-\
You are not in the wrong, and people who go out of their way to make you feel that way are in the wrong, violinp, so please pay them no need.
* I'm guessing it's a Hallowe'en theme? Not some form of Catholicism I'm not aware of...
About my dad's wife: No, they do not know. He has no intention of telling them. I would be...kinda okay with this if he hadn't:
1.) demanded my silence. I should not feel obligated to lie for you because you don't want your late wife's parents knowing you're with someone else.
2.) lied to his now - wife's dad and brother about their relationship for multiple *years* (her mother knew and didn't tell her husband) because my dad's wife is my age. When they did find out, they were understandably upset. I can understand wanting to be delicate, because of the massive age gap (nearly 40 years age difference), but my dad went to holiday functions with them! It's all patched up now, thank goodness.
I do have a good, although not close, relationship with my dad's wife. We haven't actually gotten to sit down together and talk just as a family because she and Dad live several states away and are terribly busy, and Cabbage lives in a separate state from them and us (the first time we all met, no joke, was Dad's wedding earlier this year). She would come, but my uncles will be at the wedding, and since they will tell my grandparents, and Dad refuses to be honest with them...yeah. It just stinks.
And finding out about my dad's wife would make them mad at me, because I lied for Dad. And, honestly...they at least deserve honesty, after knowing him for a little over 30 years. They may be abusive jerks, but lying to avoid their wrath just delays the inevitable, and can mean the secret gets blabbed at a really bad time, and then that's a huuuuge can of worms.
Vis a vis skulls: It is because we're Gothy (well, Double Bass is more punk, but) and because it's close to Halloween, but it's also a call for us to "memento mori" to remember that we will die - so live a good and holy life because we might die and meet our Maker (not wanting to get into a religious discussion in this thread beyond how religion doesn't allow you to be a jerk or disregard basic manners and charity). Also painted skulls are awesome. ;D We're also having a remembrance table for my mom with her bridal portrait and her wedding shoes (I would have worn her shoes, but my mom wore a size 9 and I'm a size 4.5 in kids! :P )
Thank all of your for your input and advice! It has truly been invaluable.
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Thanks so much for the update, violinp - it all makes so much more sense.
I don't do lying for other people*, so I can totally understand how uncomfortable that must make you feel, and why you don't want to be a part of it. Yeah, I could see myself thinking such behaviour to be 'childish'; I'm sorry I 'took you to task' about that. :-[
I really like the idea of your painted skulls as Hallowe'en/Goth/Memento Mori combo - thanks for explaining. And I love the memorial table for your mum.
Hope you have a wonderful time!!!
* I don't do lying for me, so I don't see why I should do it so someone else can avoid the consequences of their actions!
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the other part about lying in your dad's situation is that it's a clear signal that there IS something that it's appropriate to be angry/upset about. That there IS something to be ashamed of in what you're lying about.
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I just still don't understand the family dynamics around your grandparents. If your GF is abusive, why care what he thinks. If they are abusive, withholding information is not a bigger violation than them abusing people. That IS what he deserves and what your GM deserves for allowing his abuse to continue.
And not sharing information about things that are of no consequence to them is exactly how you and your family should think of information as it relates to your father and his choices. So what if he was married to your mom for 20 or so years. He has no relationship with them now. His marital status is of no consequence to them. How does it impact their lives?
Honestly, I think it shows poor on your father that he'd rather exclude his wife from the event then let the news of his remarriage out to his former inlaws.
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I just still don't understand the family dynamics around your grandparents. If your GF is abusive, why care what he thinks. If they are abusive, withholding information is not a bigger violation than them abusing people. That IS what he deserves and what your GM deserves for allowing his abuse to continue.
And not sharing information about things that are of no consequence to them is exactly how you and your family should think of information as it relates to your father and his choices. So what if he was married to your mom for 20 or so years. He has no relationship with them now. His marital status is of no consequence to them. How does it impact their lives?
Honestly, I think it shows poor on your father that he'd rather exclude his wife from the event then let the news of his remarriage out to his former inlaws.
I kinda resent the idea that my dad has no relationship to his late wife's parents, especially considering he had two kids with my mom. It's certainly not a *happy* relationship, but if you can just dump without feeling people you've seen at least twice a year (and usually once a month since Cabbage and I were 15 until we were in our mid - 20's) for nearly 25 years...well, I just could not be that kind of person. Also, they still have feelings of affection toward to him - they're twisted because Gran and Gramps aren't good people, but they still care about their only son - in - law. In my opinion, it's cruel to go to radio silence on them and then force Cabbage and me to straight up lie to them because he doesn't want the fallout.
Believe me, I despise the lies. But I'm not willing to deal with the fallout from both my dad and my grandparents for telling about my dad's wife.
Double Bass honestly wants me to go Cut Direct on my grandparents - he did with a whole section of his family who are racist criminals - but I'm not ready to pull that trigger yet. Decisions affect more than me - my sister would get a barrage from them about that, and my uncles would feel torn over whether to support their big sister's daughter or their own parents. I'm willing to keep a frosty relationship with them for the present to keep the peace, especially because from what my grandma told me of my grandpa's condition, he's not likely to live another year. I'm honestly surprised he hasn't killed himself with drinking before now. :'(
In happier...ish news, my dress is being fitted! It came in and the top was too big, so we had to get it altered (at quite a pretty penny, but), and it will be ready on Monday! I can hardly wait to be Mrs. Double Bass!
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I just still don't understand the family dynamics around your grandparents. If your GF is abusive, why care what he thinks. If they are abusive, withholding information is not a bigger violation than them abusing people. That IS what he deserves and what your GM deserves for allowing his abuse to continue.
And not sharing information about things that are of no consequence to them is exactly how you and your family should think of information as it relates to your father and his choices. So what if he was married to your mom for 20 or so years. He has no relationship with them now. His marital status is of no consequence to them. How does it impact their lives?
Honestly, I think it shows poor on your father that he'd rather exclude his wife from the event then let the news of his remarriage out to his former inlaws.
I kinda resent the idea that my dad has no relationship to his late wife's parents, especially considering he had two kids with my mom. It's certainly not a *happy* relationship, but if you can just dump without feeling people you've seen at least twice a year (and usually once a month since Cabbage and I were 15 until we were in our mid - 20's) for nearly 25 years...well, I just could not be that kind of person. Also, they still have feelings of affection toward to him - they're twisted because Gran and Gramps aren't good people, but they still care about their only son - in - law. In my opinion, it's cruel to go to radio silence on them and then force Cabbage and me to straight up lie to them because he doesn't want the fallout.
Believe me, I despise the lies. But I'm not willing to deal with the fallout from both my dad and my grandparents for telling about my dad's wife.
Double Bass honestly wants me to go Cut Direct on my grandparents - he did with a whole section of his family who are racist criminals - but I'm not ready to pull that trigger yet. Decisions affect more than me - my sister would get a barrage from them about that, and my uncles would feel torn over whether to support their big sister's daughter or their own parents. I'm willing to keep a frosty relationship with them for the present to keep the peace, especially because from what my grandma told me of my grandpa's condition, he's not likely to live another year. I'm honestly surprised he hasn't killed himself with drinking before now. :'(
In happier...ish news, my dress is being fitted! It came in and the top was too big, so we had to get it altered (at quite a pretty penny, but), and it will be ready on Monday! I can hardly wait to be Mrs. Double Bass!
My heart goes out to you. I don't know if your family appreciates what you go through to take the high road, as you see it, but they should.
Great to have that lovely dress to make you smile! Remind us when the wedding will be.
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The wedding is this Saturday! We're all super excited!
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I kinda resent the idea that my dad has no relationship to his late wife's parents, especially considering he had two kids with my mom. It's certainly not a *happy* relationship, but if you can just dump without feeling people you've seen at least twice a year (and usually once a month since Cabbage and I were 15 until we were in our mid - 20's) for nearly 25 years...well, I just could not be that kind of person. Also, they still have feelings of affection toward to him - they're twisted because Gran and Gramps aren't good people, but they still care about their only son - in - law. In my opinion, it's cruel to go to radio silence on them and then force Cabbage and me to straight up lie to them because he doesn't want the fallout.
Believe me, I despise the lies. But I'm not willing to deal with the fallout from both my dad and my grandparents for telling about my dad's wife.
Congrats on the upcoming wedding!
I agree that your dad would have a relationship with your late mom's parents. What I don't understand is why your grandparents would begrudge your dad moving forward with another relationship. Is it simply the age of the new wife? The fact she is Jewish(???)? Or is it that he has moved on to someone other than your mom?
I have very strong feelings that it is short-sighted and cruel to look down on someone who has suffered the loss of a spouse for moving forward and finding love again. It says nothing about the love the living spouse had for the one who has died. It simply means that the living spouse is, in fact, LIVING and deserves to pursue and enjoy love again. Much like having a second child does not diminish the love a mother or father has for the first born, a widow/ers heart expands to also love a new spouse without negating or diminishing the relationship with the first.
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I kinda resent the idea that my dad has no relationship to his late wife's parents, especially considering he had two kids with my mom. It's certainly not a *happy* relationship, but if you can just dump without feeling people you've seen at least twice a year (and usually once a month since Cabbage and I were 15 until we were in our mid - 20's) for nearly 25 years...well, I just could not be that kind of person. Also, they still have feelings of affection toward to him - they're twisted because Gran and Gramps aren't good people, but they still care about their only son - in - law. In my opinion, it's cruel to go to radio silence on them and then force Cabbage and me to straight up lie to them because he doesn't want the fallout.
Believe me, I despise the lies. But I'm not willing to deal with the fallout from both my dad and my grandparents for telling about my dad's wife.
Congrats on the upcoming wedding!
I agree that your dad would have a relationship with your late mom's parents. What I don't understand is why your grandparents would begrudge your dad moving forward with another relationship. Is it simply the age of the new wife? The fact she is Jewish(???)? Or is it that he has moved on to someone other than your mom?
I have very strong feelings that it is short-sighted and cruel to look down on someone who has suffered the loss of a spouse for moving forward and finding love again. It says nothing about the love the living spouse had for the one who has died. It simply means that the living spouse is, in fact, LIVING and deserves to pursue and enjoy love again. Much like having a second child does not diminish the love a mother or father has for the first born, a widow/ers heart expands to also love a new spouse without negating or diminishing the relationship with the first.
I read somewhere that, in fact, widows and widowers are more likely to marry again if the first marriage was happy; the article suggested that this was because they associated being married with happiness, rather than thinking of it as a burden.
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I kinda resent the idea that my dad has no relationship to his late wife's parents, especially considering he had two kids with my mom. It's certainly not a *happy* relationship, but if you can just dump without feeling people you've seen at least twice a year (and usually once a month since Cabbage and I were 15 until we were in our mid - 20's) for nearly 25 years...well, I just could not be that kind of person. Also, they still have feelings of affection toward to him - they're twisted because Gran and Gramps aren't good people, but they still care about their only son - in - law. In my opinion, it's cruel to go to radio silence on them and then force Cabbage and me to straight up lie to them because he doesn't want the fallout.
Believe me, I despise the lies. But I'm not willing to deal with the fallout from both my dad and my grandparents for telling about my dad's wife.
I have very strong feelings that it is short-sighted and cruel to look down on someone who has suffered the loss of a spouse for moving forward and finding love again. It says nothing about the love the living spouse had for the one who has died. It simply means that the living spouse is, in fact, LIVING and deserves to pursue and enjoy love again. Much like having a second child does not diminish the love a mother or father has for the first born, a widow/ers heart expands to also love a new spouse without negating or diminishing the relationship with the first.
Trimming the quote tree a little to focus on this. I agree that someone should not be judged for moving forward. At the same time, other people had their own relationships with the dead person, and are grieving in their own time and way. The widow/widower moving forward "forces" the rest of the family to move forward in a way that they may not be ready for/comfortable with. I know two men who lost their wives and then remarried, and it was very hard on their grown children. (In one case it has worked out very well, and the daughter I know best posted a beautiful tribute on Mother's Day on Facebook, being grateful for "two wonderful mothers".)
It sounds as if you're fine with your dad moving forward, and if your grandparents are so toxic, I can understand why he doesn't want to get into this with his former parents-in-law. I will judge him for putting you in a difficult position.
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The wedding is this Saturday! We're all super excited!
Hope your wedding turns out to be as wonderful as you imagine it to be! (Sans the drama.)
Congratulations, best wishes, and all that . . . excited for you! ;D
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Hope things all go well!
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Hope it all goes beautifully, and you have a wonderful day!
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Trimming the quote tree a little to focus on this. I agree that someone should not be judged for moving forward. At the same time, other people had their own relationships with the dead person, and are grieving in their own time and way. The widow/widower moving forward "forces" the rest of the family to move forward in a way that they may not be ready for/comfortable with. I know two men who lost their wives and then remarried, and it was very hard on their grown children. (In one case it has worked out very well, and the daughter I know best posted a beautiful tribute on Mother's Day on Facebook, being grateful for "two wonderful mothers".)
Of course everyone grieves differently but I don't think it is fair to expect a widow or widower to be alone based on someone else's arbitrary timeline (which may be that someone else thinks the widow or widower should NEVER have another romantic relationship at all). I personally think it is selfish that an adult child would not want their living parent to be happy, including finding love again. After the funeral, everyone aside from the widow or widower got to go home with their significant other. Everyone else got to lean on their significant other in their grief, and everyone else got to go about their lives celebrating their joys with their SOs. I think it is only natural that a widow or widower would seek another significant other at some point.
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It sounds as if you're fine with your dad moving forward, and if your grandparents are so toxic, I can understand why he doesn't want to get into this with his former parents-in-law. I will judge him for putting you in a difficult position.
This, exactly. We're very happy he found love again. Speaking for myself, it's just that our grandparents are so toxic that while I get why he did what he did, he is making us be in a situation where we have to bold-faced lie to our grandparents because he's...scared of them, I guess? Or he just doesn't want to deal with them wanting to meet her when he knows how toxic and judgey they are to almost everyone. Whatever the case may be, it's really cruddy to make us bear the burden of it, because they do ask after him and ask, "What's he doing? Is he seeing anyone?" I'm not cool with having to be evasive or outright lie.
I'll let violinp share the actual details when she's ready, but the wedding was so lovely, and I'm pumped to finally have a brother(-in-law).
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Just posting for an update - they must be married by now, so I guess we shouldn’t hold our breaths.
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Just posting for an update - they must be married by now, so I guess we shouldn’t hold our breaths.
violinp and Double Bass are on their honeymoon - I'm sure she'll do an update when they're back.
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It sounds as if you're fine with your dad moving forward, and if your grandparents are so toxic, I can understand why he doesn't want to get into this with his former parents-in-law. I will judge him for putting you in a difficult position.
This, exactly. We're very happy he found love again. Speaking for myself, it's just that our grandparents are so toxic that while I get why he did what he did, he is making us be in a situation where we have to bold-faced lie to our grandparents because he's...scared of them, I guess? Or he just doesn't want to deal with them wanting to meet her when he knows how toxic and judgey they are to almost everyone. Whatever the case may be, it's really cruddy to make us bear the burden of it, because they do ask after him and ask, "What's he doing? Is he seeing anyone?" I'm not cool with having to be evasive or outright lie.
I'll let violinp share the actual details when she's ready, but the wedding was so lovely, and I'm pumped to finally have a brother(-in-law).
Triangulation. It's so very difficult to be in the middle of two people you care about.
But it's hard for me to blame him at all. It's your right to be in touch with these toxic people and to attempt to stay on good terms with them. It's also fair of him to say he doesn't want you sharing details about his life with them. I believe we all have that right to privacy.
Would it be easier for you if he cut them off completely or if he told them "I got married" himself? I suspect you would you would still have to listen to them ask about him and/or complain about his choices- because they are toxic.
I actually think it's a kindness of him to maintain limited contact with them and limiting the information they about him now seems the only way to do that. For me, that's often a better choice than "I don't want to see you or have you know anything about my life".
"As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons."
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I think it is really crummy that your father puts you in a position like this! Next time the GP ask, i think I would tell them. If they become nasty, then none of you really have to put up with it. You can easily put them limited contact; contact on your own terms.
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Hey, everyone!
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you all; Double Bass and I went on our honeymoon, and then real life once we came back got super busy!
Here's my update: Gran and Gramps elected not to come, because of my Gramps' health - it would have been too much strain on his heart as well as the rest of his body, to try and travel on a plane to me, never mind all the stress of the wedding. I honestly was relieved...and then felt bad that I was relieved, which confused the heck out of Double Bass, because he has never had any problem cutting toxic people out of his life. I explained to him that it was kinda like my dreams of a happy family, as well as everyone being there, finally and really died. My mom, obviously, wasn't there, most of the family I'd invited ended up not coming for either health or travel reasons...for a moment there, it really, really sucked, because the wedding I had envisioned in my head since I was a kid was never gonna happen.
I cried, Double Bass comforted me, and then we kinda moved on from that. The wedding day ended up being wonderful, despite it being 46 degrees and pouring rain outside when we did our outdoor shots. The Mass went off with only one hitch (the server forgot to put the program in Father's book for the Mass and he stalled out for a second, but recovered beautifully), and the reception was great. Double Bass made a wonderful speech about how grateful he was for me and my love and trust in him, how he was grateful to his parents for how they raised him, and he did a sweet tribute to my dad and mom that...honestly made me bawl. Double Bass is not a "feelings in public" person, so I know it was hard for him, but it was so wonderful.
We ended up using punch for the quaich, and it went off fine. I'm sure no one would have cared if we'd had booze, but if I drink spirits, I make a face like my mouth turned inside out, so it was probably better just to have punch and avoid the awkward photos in 20 years.
As to my dad's marriage and not telling Gran and Gramps...*sigh* Double Bass (and frankly I) think it's ridiculous to hide that from them as though my dad's wife and marriage are something shameful - which, honestly, even though Dad doesn't think that, that's what it looks as though he's showing by his secrecy. There is nothing to be gained by hiding something that big...but if we told Gran and Gramps now, they would be furious at me for straight up lying to them for multiple years, no matter if I was told to or not. And my relationship with my grandparents affects my relationship with my uncles as well - I worry I would never see them again if that blew up. Regardless of whether that's just of them or not, that's the situation. And that's kinda getting beyond etiquette into studying toxic family dynamics and whatnot.
The important things are that I'm now Mrs. Double Bass, that our wedding wasn't a disaster, and that everyone behaved themselves or stayed home. I'm glad that I married into a family (at least, Double Bass' immediate family) that understands familial abuse and trauma, and is there for me to help me understand and process and realize I'm not a worthless toerag who everyone resents having around. When everyone else had left, and it was just Double Bass, his family, and me breaking everything down...I realized for the first time what family was supposed to be like. I mean, yes, I had good times with my sister and parents, but there was always the threat of someone blowing up because I said or did the wrong thing. My mom folded towels *at* me when she was mad (she learned some very toxic behaviors from her parents, unfortunately).
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It sounds like you found your safe harbor after being on a stormy sea for years, and for that, I am very glad for you.
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I'm so glad the day went well, and that you have 'found your home'; good people are home, aren't they?
The more I read about the situation with your dad/grandparents, I'm siding along with 'keep going' - trying to "put right" a lie gets harder and harder as more time passes, so if you're OK glossing over your dad's 'dating' situation, I don't see any advantage for you in telling of his marriage - it sounds as though the "nuclear" fallout would be worse admitting a [very minor and understandable] deception than the strain on you to continue with that 'sleight of hand'?
Either way: hugs, and Congratulations!!, and a very happy married life to you both.
And also: it's nice seeing CabbageGirl posting here - hope you are well, and happy, too!
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Double Bass is not a "feelings in public" person
Those people will surprise you, often when it matters most.
I'm glad you and he have found each other, and I hope you hold onto many happy memories from the day.