Bad Manners and Brimstone

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: SnappyLT on July 23, 2020, 12:33:51 am


Title: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted. (UPDATE #11)
Post by: SnappyLT on July 23, 2020, 12:33:51 am
Hi. Last month I wrote a post about relatives leturing me on the phone about something I have no control over. I didn't like being lectured.

When I was on the phone tonight, I wonder if I did the same thing (sort of) to a different relative. Looking back, I think she just wanted sympathy and instead I asked why she hadn't taken the step needed to solve her problem.

(I guess that's not exactly the same thing as lecturing someone about something they can't control - because she could control this if she really wanted to - but maybe it's similar because I told her something she didn't want to hear.)

One of my relatives suffered an injury long ago that can make it painful for her to walk. She has learned that by having shoes of different heights she can reduce or eliminate the pain. She has purchased special inserts for many of her business shoes that work - she uses one of the inserts and discards the other one, and thus her shoes have her legs at different heights, and her pain is relieved.

Only thing is, she has not gotten around to ordering special inserts to wear with the pair of casual shoes she always wears to walk her dog. So, walking her dog can be painful for her.

She commented to me on the phone tonight that she was in pain after walking her dog.

Looking back, I should have just told her how sorry I am that she is in pain. (Looking back, I suspect that's what she wanted to hear.)

Instead, I asked about the special inserts. (She had told me years ago about how the inserts relieve her pain at work.) Well, she hemmed and hawed and said she hadn't gotten around to ordering ones for her casual shoes.

(Looking back, I should have dropped the whole topic before this point.)

Instead, oblivious, I said, "Well, do they make inserts in the shape of your casual shoes"?

She replied they do.

I continued, "Maybe you should go ahead and order an insert for your dog walking shoes, then it wouldn't hurt so much to walk your dog."

That was the wrong thing to have said, clearly. She started telling me about how hard it is to work from home, and how I just don't understand how busy she is and how many different tasks she has to juggle... and she just doesn't have any time to order inserts for those shoes.

And I finally realized I should have shut up long before that point. She wanted sympathy for her pain, not a solution to stop her pain. I was missing the point.

So, I apologized. I said I don't know what it is like to have pain like she does, and I retired before the pandemic so I don't know what it's like to have to work from home like she does. And then I changed the subject. (Bean dip, any one?)

I guess I am not particularly looking for advice; perhaps just comments on how other have handled similar situations in the past.

PS-
To head off questions. My relative earns a reasonable salary, and as far as I know she has enough money to buy shoe inserts if she wants to buy them. I know she does order groceries online, so she knows how to use a computer to buy things. It seems to me in the time she was telling me about her pain she could have almost finished ordering herself inserts online to stop the pain...

Buit there I go again, missing that (I think) she wants the sympathy, not the solution.
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted.
Post by: Aleko on July 23, 2020, 03:12:21 am
Well, we all know that what we want is often not what we actually need. Clearly she has got so depressed in lockdown that she just didn’t have the energy to go online and buy what she needs to walk the dog comfortably (and heaven knows most of us have been in that state at some time in our lives). She called you wanting a warm cosy dose of sympathy for her suffering, but instead encountered your sincere puzzlement that she hadn’t taken the easy obvious step that would solve it. If that impels her to just sit down at her computer and put an order through, you will have done her more good than you would have done by helping her have a good comforting wallow in her misery.

Perhaps call her some time for a nice kindly chat about the difficulties of working from home and Life in General, so she doesn’t come away with the impression that you’re fundamentally not sympathetic. But don’t feel badly about your response.
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted.
Post by: Rose Red on July 23, 2020, 08:23:04 am
You're a fixer. I am too. It can be difficult for people like us to figure out if the other person wants a solution or just want to vent.

It annoys me sometimes. I wish people will just come right out and say what they want. I guess all we can do is ask if they want us to take care of the problem. If they say no, just say "well, I'm here to listen."
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted.
Post by: Jem on July 23, 2020, 08:25:48 am
I think it depends on the relationship but I know with my husband and I we simply ask each other or tell each other what it is we are looking for in a particular situation.

For example:

Me: "The check engine light is on in my car. Are you able to take it to the shop today?"

vs.

Me: "I had an awful day at work today. I'm not looking for how you would have handled this situation, I just want to vent about it."

That way he doesn't have to guess what it is I am looking for. Or also:

Him: "My back is really hurting me."
Me: "Do you want some ideas to relieve the pain or do you want me to just be here with you?"

or

Him: "I was planning to mow the lawn today but cannot because my back hurts. Are you able to mow it for me?"
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted.
Post by: lakey on July 23, 2020, 01:02:31 pm
A lot of us do this. I have a younger sister, and often I find my self giving her unsolicited advice. She's sixty years old. She can make her own decisions. It's a bad habit for me and I try to stop myself.
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted.
Post by: Victoria on July 23, 2020, 11:42:59 pm
I'm a fixer as well and I always have been. When I was much younger I drove away a friend who was in a toxic relationship. She constantly called me to complain about the latest thing her boyfriend had done, and I repeatedly kept trying to tell her that she needed to break up with him and that he wasn't worth it...which was true, but she eventually decided (after a breakup and reunion) that it was me she needed to break up with, because I "wasn't supportive of [her] relationship."  By the time I was older and going through the same situation with my new best friend, I knew enough to offer sympathy, she eventually arrived at the conclusion that her boyfriend was a hot dumpster fire in her own time, and our friendship is intact.
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted.
Post by: peony on July 24, 2020, 09:53:42 am
I have a great deal of sympathy for people who can't see their way through to a workable solution for their sufferings. I have a lot less for people who can relieve their problem with just a little bit of effort. Maybe that makes me a cold person, but really, don't go on and on about something to me if you can buy or find or do something in five minutes or less that makes that problem go away! Legit sympathy is fine with me, but fishing for artificially generated sympathy, no thank you. I don't have enough "spoons" for that. SnappyLT, I think you were fine.
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted.
Post by: Dazi on July 24, 2020, 07:37:01 pm
I'm a fixer by nature. I'm also rather direct, so I just flat out ah the person if they just need to vent or do they want solutions\advise.
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted.
Post by: Morticia on July 26, 2020, 12:40:52 pm
I get it. When people vent at me, it makes me feel anxious, like I'm responsible in some way. This makes me feel like they are putting me on the spot to solve the problem. Intellectually, I can look back and realise that is not what they were doing, but it's difficult in the moment. I think what I'm saying, from the comfort of the internet, is that I sympathise, but I don't have an answer.
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted.
Post by: JeanFromBNA on July 28, 2020, 02:30:17 pm
BTDT, got many, many T-shirts.

Sometimes, I'll ask people if they would like me to arrange for the thing to be done.

I agree with Morticia's comments about anxiety. That's my initial reaction to a complaint, too.  Followed by, "How am I gonna fix this?" I've learned over time that it's not always my problem to fix.
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted.
Post by: Chez Miriam on July 29, 2020, 04:19:00 am
BTDT, got many, many T-shirts.

Sometimes, I'll ask people if they would like me to arrange for the thing to be done.

I agree with Morticia's comments about anxiety. That's my initial reaction to a complaint, too.  Followed by, "How am I gonna fix this?" I've learned over time that it's not always my problem to fix.

I am a fixer, too - there's a lot of us here.  I'm getting much better at spotting the 'calls for sympathy', but I've also got a lot better at not providing endless sympathy to people who can't/won't/don't help themselves but engage in all sorts of other activities that they can find energy/time/money for.

I know it's harsh, but sometimes I will say: "I offered to help you with this problem, you said you wanted to fix it, I went to a lot of trouble to help you, and you did nothing, and now I don't want to hear about it any more.  Now, how was that bean dip you were making?".

I'm fine helping people to solve problems of their own making, but when they take up my valuable time and mental resources, let me do all the 'hard' work, and then just can't be bothered to lift one finger, I don't want to hear about how they are 'suffering'.

If someone tells me "I know I messed up, but is there any chance of sympathy anyway?", I'm totally fine with that, and never mention the whatever-it-was, just pour the (virtual) tea and get out the (virtual) biscuits, and provide lavish servings of sympathy.  I think we all need support when we know we messed up, but I'm not so good when the person denies any responsibility for what they're going through, just demands sympathy.

I'm not sure if I need to work on that?  Or whether having people who like wallowing in problems of their own making drop out of my life is a good thing?

For the record: I regard a person who has become overwhelmed as totally deserving sympathy, but I'm getting better at not providing it to people who seem to expect the world to be bent to fit them, and I should be part of the bending crew [if that makes sense].

And now I'm wondering if I'm a horrible person. :-\
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted.
Post by: SnappyLT on November 13, 2020, 05:34:17 pm
Update from OP:

It took almost four months, but today when I was chatting on the phone with my relative, she mentioned that she finally ordered the shoe insert for her dog-walking shoes. It arrived this week and it does make a difference for her.

Although I was silently thinking, "At long last!!!", what I said aloud was, "I'm glad to hear that!"
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted. (UPDATE #11)
Post by: Amara on November 14, 2020, 12:51:57 am
Good response, Snappy!

Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted. (UPDATE #11)
Post by: VorFemme on November 14, 2020, 09:10:46 am
I dropped my new phone (like, less than a week since it came in the mail & I transferred data & services to the new phone) on Tuesday.  It is useable, but the screen is starred on two edges and has fine cracks all across it.  We are traveling and the closest repair place does not work with that phone on a regular basis and apparently cannot guarantee that the work could be done before we left the area.  So, I am continuing to use it (carefully) and have already called ahead to the repair place about getting it to them Monday. 

In the meantime, DH keeps telling me that I should have had a case on it (ordered because NO local businesses had cases for this model in the store and the case was delivered to the house yesterday) and that I should have been more careful. 

It makes me feel worse, not better. I want a little sympathy, maybe a pat on the back, and maybe a comment about "next time, don't transfer services until after the case is on it!"
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted. (UPDATE #11)
Post by: kckgirl on November 14, 2020, 09:26:56 am
VorFemme, 40 lashes with a wet noodle for your husband. Things happen. He knows that!

Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted. (UPDATE #11)
Post by: lakey on November 14, 2020, 01:26:28 pm
Just a hint for anyone else who smashes their phone screen, I also dropped my phone, on cement. There was a spiderweb of cracks all across the screen, but the phone still worked. I replaced it because it was older. However, until I could replace it, I placed plastic cling wrap around it.
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted. (UPDATE #11)
Post by: VorFemme on November 16, 2020, 07:53:26 pm
VorFemme, 40 lashes with a wet noodle for your husband. Things happen. He knows that!

Actually - he knows it, too.  I bought him a new smartwatch for his birthday (and Christmas & our wedding anniversary present) last month...and he lost the charging cradle on our trip to Orlando to join the grandkids and their parents (our DD & her DH).  He knows a lot about how I probably feel - but he has to point out what I could have done better so it won't happen "next time".  The last time I dropped a phone and it was damaged, it was over a year since we'd gotten it AND it was in a double layer case - but it landed flat on the screen on stone tiles...and the digitizer broke.  That was a few days before Hurricane Harvey - so getting it fixed was high on the list of things that had to be done AND it got done (I ended up with an accumulation of cases for it in the four years that I owned it - but at least two of them were more decorative than protective - like the shiny gold plastic with rubber lining that was on it when it was damaged).  This one - is uncommon enough that I couldn't find a case in the local area AND the ones that I found on eBay didn't come in immediately - so I have two cases now (one of which is ON the phone, **** screen & all) and I went by and paid for the parts to fix it just after noon, so that they would order them & call me when the parts are available. 

It's in a case now and I plan to put it back in a case immediately after they bring it back to my car in the parking lot (their lobby is closed - but repairs of electronic devices must be done - as replacing them isn't always an option if there being used for work or school from home set up). 
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted.
Post by: LadyJaneinMD on November 19, 2020, 07:09:51 am
I'm a fixer by nature. I'm also rather direct, so I just flat out ah the person if they just need to vent or do they want solutions\advise.

Me too.  I'm rather obtuse at figuring out what people really want.    However, if I really just want sympathy, I'll say, 'I don't want to fix this, I just need to wallow for a bit and I'll be fine.

For the OP, it's possible that she hasn't gotten around to ordering inserts for her casual shoes because 'they're only casual shoes, why spend more money on them?'  It took me a VERY long time to realize that my comfort while casual is just as important as my comfort while at work.  This may be her mindset.  It's a not-uncommon mindset, thinking that your personal comfort is not as important as your professional comfort (if she doesn't hurt at work, she's less likely to snap at people and get fired).    At least, I know that I agree with that far too often. 
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted. (UPDATE #11)
Post by: Limmershin on November 20, 2020, 03:01:19 am
Have just discovered this thread (failed to notice it back in the summer).  The following reflection prompted, likely, by my being -- if I perceive rightly -- one of the very few male participants on "BM&B".  The writers of books in the Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, etc., vein; tend strongly to "push" the proposition that this is an area where the two sexes are apt to differ, with resulting disharmony between them.  According to this view of things, men's attitude is: if something is wrong -- if possible, take action to put it right; if it isn't, then as far as possible, put it out of mind and concentrate on other stuff -- "droning on about" the problem, is pointless. Women, on the other hand, find a considerable degree of solace in talking, often at length, to a sympathetic listener; about problems in life which are bugging them -- ways to fix said problems, not primarily being looked for and in fact, often actually not welcome. Therefrom, a lot of potential discord between members of the two respective sexes, interacting (or failing to), concerning the addressing of problems in life.

Some of the books referred to above, do have the grace to state that on this matter, they are generalising rather wildly; and that every generalisation has a million individual exceptions to it. Nonetheless, the as-above "men act to solve it, or shut up; women whinge about it at length; between the two sexes, a bad mix" meme, is a very widespread -- indeed quite cliche-ish -- one.  I have just found it interesting to note in the posts on this thread, many posters -- who I either know, or assume, to be female -- identifiying themselves as "fixers", rather than "lamenters".  Would seem to reinforce the perception that the peddlers of pop psychology don't know everything, and indeed have a tendency to broad and sweeping over-simplification !

Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted. (UPDATE #11)
Post by: SnappyLT on November 26, 2020, 12:42:47 pm
Limmershin,

I'm the OP. For whatever it is worth, I am male and the relative I wrote about is female. (Perhaps you already knew that.)

     SnappyLT
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted. (UPDATE #11)
Post by: Limmershin on November 27, 2020, 08:41:47 am
To SnappyLT

I hope I didn't offend with my post: your initial post states that your relative is female, which I picked up from the start -- I wasn't sure about your own gender (if that is indicated in your post, I missed it).  I was just unable to resist remarking how, in general discourse in very many places in these times: this is a matter on which it is opined with great frequency that "in the main here -- men tend to do / be A; women, B",
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted. (UPDATE #11)
Post by: LadyJaneinMD on December 10, 2020, 05:44:51 am
Just a hint for anyone else who smashes their phone screen, I also dropped my phone, on cement. There was a spiderweb of cracks all across the screen, but the phone still worked. I replaced it because it was older. However, until I could replace it, I placed plastic cling wrap around it.

I always wrap my television remotes in cling wrap (plastic wrap for us Americans).  Since I live alone, 100% of my meals are eaten while sitting on the couch in front of the TV (No dining room anyway - that's where the treadmill is).  So, cling wrap keeps the remote clean of crumbs and icky stuff.  Change the cling wrap when you replace the batteries.  This has been working for me for over a decade. 
Title: Re: Taking too long to realize sympathy (not a solution) is wanted. (UPDATE #11)
Post by: SnappyLT on December 25, 2020, 10:33:23 am
To SnappyLT

I hope I didn't offend with my post: your initial post states that your relative is female, which I picked up from the start -- I wasn't sure about your own gender (if that is indicated in your post, I missed it).  I was just unable to resist remarking how, in general discourse in very many places in these times: this is a matter on which it is opined with great frequency that "in the main here -- men tend to do / be A; women, B",

Limmershin,

I wasn't offended at all. A gender difference may have explained part of the differences in outlooks. Immediately wanting to think of a solution to a problem (as opposed to only addressing the feelings involved) is a tendency I have noticed in myself.