Post by: SparklingIce on July 28, 2020, 02:32:18 am
Post by: Aleko on July 28, 2020, 03:48:47 am
We are all born total egotists, but have to learn eventually that we can’t always be the star of the show - and the longer you try to protect her from that knowledge the more painful the lesson will be in the end, and the more people she will p*** off before she finally gets it. You don’t want her to get known as ‘SparklingIce’s annoying child who always whines if she isn’t always given special treatment’.
By all means ask the family what attendants the bride plans to have. You might well manage to do that without revealing why you want to know - after all, lots of people just love wedding festivity enough to want to know the plans. (I was bemused, the day I walked into my workplace with the news that I had got engaged over the weekend, by the number of colleagues who promptly asked me how many bridesmaids I planned to have. It made me think I’d got this marrying lark all wrong, and that I should have backed DH-to-be into a corner with a clipboard behind my back.) Then if there are going to be any girls around her age in the wedding party, you can simply give her a choice: ‘We’ll take you to the wedding if you promise to behave this time, or you stay behind with your aunt.’ Don’t even allow her to get the idea that dressing as a princess or honorary flower girl at this wedding is even a possibility for her.
Post by: gellchom on July 28, 2020, 04:04:48 am
Seven is plenty old enough to learn this important lesson. And a bit old to wear a costume to a wedding without looking spoiled instead of adorable.
Put her in a nice dress, maybe a new one. Tell her how grown up she will look. Maybe let her wear a bracelet or necklace - not adult so it looks like dress up, but not toy either. She may well love being So Grown Up so much she prefers it.
That may help, but even if it doesn’t, please follow Aleko’s great advice. If she can’t manage being a good guest, she doesn’t come, just like anyone of any age. Her choice.
Post by: Rose Red on July 28, 2020, 06:15:06 am
Post by: gramma dishes on July 28, 2020, 08:14:44 am
Post by: Wanaca on July 28, 2020, 09:04:25 am
Post by: Rose Red on July 28, 2020, 10:25:12 am
A pretty dress and a barrette with a single flower or ribbons in her hair would be appropriate and still special.
Post by: Hmmm on July 28, 2020, 10:28:25 am
I agree with the others that it would be inappropriate for her to pretend to be a flower girl, or wear a crown. I also don't believe it would be appropriate to ask about attendants. I'm sure the family is well aware that you have a daughter flower girl age and if they wanted to ask her they would without any prompting.
If I were you, I'd start the conversation with her now. Tell her you understand that it's fun to be in the spotlight but we can't all be in the spotlight. Mention how you will be going dressed as a guest and wouldn't she think it silly if you pouted about not getting to wear the wedding dress or a bridesmaid dress. If you did not tell her last year that her behavior embarrassed you, I would do so now.
I agree about giving her a choice. You two can go buy her a dress that is suitable for a guest and she can attend with you, or she can stay at home if she thinks she can't behave appropriately. Tell her that you do not want your enjoyment to be ruined by being concerned she'll misbehave.
Post by: TootsNYC on July 28, 2020, 02:05:49 pm
She's also showing you a vulnerability or weakness she has--that's great that you're getting this evidence; now you need to help her.
I spent a lot of time instructing my kids on what to expect in situations, and I also "pronounced" things like "I know you want to feel special, but this is not acceptable. It's not your turn. It's someone else's turn. You would feel upset if someone else took your turn, right?"
I think those lessons start with things like trucks and swings, etc.
If you're feeling at a loss for how to coach her through this, please consider reaching out for some coaching from a child psychologist or family counselor. They are pros, and they will have all kinds of tactics and suggestions and things they can teach you so you can be your girl's most powerful coach.
It's not a kindness to kids (to anyone) to indulge them in order to shield them from disappointment and pain. Better by far to have them experience that feeling of rejection, that feeling of being left out, while they are young and the stakes are small.
That's an important life skill, and only she can teach it to herself (you can model proper behavior, and you can insist on creating situations in which she can learn it, and you can provide motivation for her to learn it, like negative consequences if she exhibits behavior that's socially unacceptable).
But it's crucial for her! It's far more important that she learn how to NOT be the center of attention, and how to focus on other people, than it is that she not be sad or throw a tantrum when she's unhappy.
Good luck!
Post by: Luci on July 28, 2020, 05:18:14 pm
Post by: Winterlight on July 28, 2020, 08:41:47 pm
Post by: SparklingIce on July 28, 2020, 08:48:51 pm
(https://slimages.macysassets.com/is/image/MCY/products/4/optimized/14761694_fpx.tif?op_sharpen=1&wid=354&hei=430&fit=fit,1&$filtersm$&fmt=webp)
So maybe this and a brand new rose gold Jojo bow to top the ensamble off.
Post by: Chez Miriam on July 29, 2020, 05:04:08 am
I'm glad you reacted well to the posters above, because it makes my tale of my college friend an anecdote rather than a dire warning:
"M" was Daddy's Little Princess, and the world was moulded to fit comfortably around her wants/desires [and Daddy had enough clout/money to ensure that happened]...
And then M went to [over 18s] college, and by her (truly spectacular) tantrums/demands alienated every. single. fellow. student. Apart from me (for some reason). I loved M like the little sister I never had, and resolved to have the "awkward conversation". So that ended up with M hating me.
After a few weeks of no-one in the class talking with her, and her shunning me, she actually apologised to me [for hitting me, as well; that was part of her arsenal, when she didn't get her way]. Because I thought she was a lovely girl, who had just been ruined by her father's indulgence, I forgave her and we became great friends. Other people did not. She dropped out of college after a couple of years. I still miss her [when I think of her], but I believe [from some trickled-back reports via friends-of-friends] she started out afresh with a new attitude, so I'm hopeful that she went on to make some truly wonderful friends.
Someone choosing a different path for her aged 7 really would have made those years between 18 and 20 a lot easier.
Post by: Aleko on July 29, 2020, 07:49:39 am
Quote
She really wants to go but she is still scared of a flower girl (or a few) being there.
Scared? ??? If you seriously meant that she finds scary the mere idea of having to watch another little girl being in the limelight when she isn't, that is worrying.
Post by: gellchom on July 29, 2020, 09:13:34 am
So you can use that language. “You know how to take turns. And you’re not scared of that. Well, that’s all this is — someone else’s turn. You got this, Brielle!”
My kids, now adults, were glad we taught them to be confident that they’d be able to handle things.
Post by: TootsNYC on July 29, 2020, 09:20:56 am
Quote
she is still scared of a flower girl (or a few) being there.
That's something to explore a little. Maybe she can just get through it, but you might encourage her to think about whether that's an accurate word to describe her feelings, and to think about what bad thing there is that she's scared of.
Post by: Rose Red on July 29, 2020, 09:35:18 am
QuoteShe really wants to go but she is still scared of a flower girl (or a few) being there.
Scared? ??? If you seriously meant that she finds scary the mere idea of having to watch another little girl being in the limelight when she isn't, that is worrying.
I was thinking the same thing. That really jumped out at me. A seven year old is in the 1st or 2nd grade in the US. How does she react when another student is the center of attention or rewarded? Or is her issue just for weddings with flower girls because of the "fairytale" setting? But either way, being scared is a concern and need to be addressed before the wedding. That little suit is beautiful, but you need to make sure she doesn't have a meltdown when face to face with the reality of flower girls in princess-like dresses.
Post by: gellchom on July 29, 2020, 01:55:59 pm
Post by: Hmmm on July 29, 2020, 06:27:28 pm
Post by: Rose Red on July 29, 2020, 06:33:33 pm
How are people seeing the suit? I don’t see a link.
The picture is in post# 11. It's not a link. It's just there. Maybe it's your settings? Sorry, I don't know much about computers.
Post by: Lula on July 29, 2020, 09:08:49 pm
Post by: Rose Red on July 29, 2020, 09:38:38 pm
Show her some photos of real-life, modern-day princesses attending weddings as guests. They're not wearing ballgowns or crowns, floral or otherwise. They're just dressed nicely, and, more importantly, behaving with great dignity.
The problem with this is that it doesn't appear she cares about the grownups. Notice she wasn't jealous of the bridesmaids; only the flower girls who are around her age. And real life little princesses at weddings are usually captured in pictures as members of the wedding party.
Post by: TootsNYC on July 30, 2020, 10:49:12 am
I don't remember ever having any jealousy over it, but that was because my mom really focused on including us in the planning; we had a role, and our role was to be one of the people who made it special for THEM. She really involved us. And it was a great modeling of how to not be the center of attention, but still feel part of the event.
harder to do with someone's wedding, of course. It wouldn't be appropriate to try to insert yourself into planning that event.
But you could talk about how important guests are to the success of a wedding or any gathering--that they converse when appropriate, and help set the stage when it's not (like in the ceremony); that even though they may seem like "supporting characters," they are really valuable to the success of the event. And that there are people to "perform" for even if you're not the star.
My DD went through a bad patch in college, and I saw that on her "mantras" board, she had written, "You are not the Chosen One."
She had read a lot of Y.A. fantasy novels, and she was the first grandchild, and she did really well in school through high school, I think that part of her struggle was that she'd gotten to a point where she was afraid she was failing by not excelling. It was a huge burden for her (I think) to feel pressured to be the star, to be the main character in the story. But it was also hard for her to not get to BE the Chosen One.
So I'm having some big "projection" going on here, and hoping you can help your DD set down the pressure to be in the starring role, and to figure out how to BE in a starring role in her OWN life, at the same time she's a supporting character in someone else's.
Maybe have her watch some of her favorite movies and concentrate on the supporting characters instead of the star, and learn to really appreciate them.
Post by: PVZFan on July 30, 2020, 11:09:45 am
Also, the strategy of observing princesses at other weddings could be really fun and I think it's a great idea. She might not care about adults, per se, but I think she could observe the behavior and learn from it.
Finally, I think offering her a reward if she attends the wedding successfully is reasonable. Like she wears the suit (which is adorable) and makes a couple socially nice comments to the flower girl(s) and is able to make it through the night without an outburst or tantrum and she earns having a friend over for a princess party tea in the week after the wedding. It motivates her to use the strategies outlined and reinforces that she isn't always the center of attention and she can learn to share the spotlight.
Post by: TootsNYC on July 30, 2020, 12:50:47 pm
PVZFan's approach emphasizes the "learning and practicing" aspect, which is what kids are supposed to do in their childhood.
She'll go through the day with some focus, and a goal.
And it won't be comfortable, perhaps, but she'll discover that she can survive, and it wasn't so hard.
and if she has a bit of meltdown, well then, that's something to discuss and figure out how to prevent next time; it's not the end of the world if she ends up upset. That's "being 7."
Post by: oogyda on July 30, 2020, 01:49:24 pm
But, when you put a crown on her head and a wand in her hand, you are trying to let her outshine the actual flower girl.
Given the behavior of last year's wedding, I would let her have some girl time with her aunt.
Post by: Lady B on July 30, 2020, 05:52:16 pm
How are people seeing the suit? I don’t see a link.
Was the "Dumb" button on Gellcom's question a mistake?
Post by: SparklingIce on July 30, 2020, 09:16:27 pm
Here goes, as I see that quite a for bit has happened since I was here last. How that for first impressions?
Let me start by saying that all of this is quite a come to Jesus-ish for me. I had no idea that one basic question could really make me think about certain aspects of how I raise my daughter, and some of it is frighteningly insightful, like you know our lives. Kinda makes me feel uncomfortable, even though none of you are being intentionally harsh. It just that I have come to realize a few things, it's eating at me.
Bri is an only child for us, and the youngest one on my side of the family, with a 14 year gap from the last cousin. She was "everybody's baby" and still is so. She has been an only "little" kid at family and social gatherings most of her life, so it's her comfort zone. Yes, at our own fault and doing, Bri is also a "little princess" with all the things I felt a young princess would get in real life. Private school, ballet, and annual trip to Disney World where she would wear a princess dress every day of the trip. So ... yes, we (husband and I) turned her into her princess obsessed self.
I honestly never thought this whole princess thing was bad. (Is it biting us in the tuckus now?)
Saying all that, I want you all to know that she isn't a bad girl by far. She's smart, she likes to do silly things to make her friends laugh, and has a huge personality.
It's interesting the varying things that make her jealous. That one wedding and the flower girls - yes. Doing a natural look pageant and being around other little girls in dresses - no. Her handful of dance competitions with other, better skilled children - no. Going to a classical concert with daddy and I and seeing a featured child playing her violin - yes. Going to birthday parties and not being the birthday kid - no. Screaming "go away you dodo brain" (ok, I'll admit we laughed at this - shame on us, I know) at the TV at the child singer on America's Got Talent - a big yes.
We really don't know what will set her off.
But she does get set off. We fix this by taking her away from the situation and waiting it out until she stops crying, and then try to avoid that trigger (leaving before curtain call so she won't have to see the violin girl take a bow).
We ask why she is jealous, and she straight with us "ugh, not fair ... how come they get to do that?" about the flower girls. So it's not like she hides it. We tell her we can't do anything to make her un-jealous, but maybe we can maybe think of ways to see that what she is jealous of could be not fun. The dresses are probably itchy. Voilin kid's fingers probably hurt so much from practicing so much. Singing girl's voice probably can't talk alot because she has to save her voice.
As for the entire "being scared" bit, I think many of you have nailed it with "apprehensive". Her thing is, after some talk, is that, in her words, "I want to be the only kid". I explained to her that she can't be the only kid in every group, because, well, she just can't. If other kids are invited, then that's just how it is.
I been telling her how her suit is going to make her look sophisticated and classy, and she will have to act the part. Crying and sulking isn't either of those. If she still wants to keep up her "princess" thing, I said we can get a crown or a star shaped shaped brooch and we can pin it on her jacket lapel! Not obvious, but just enough to make her feel special. She can get a new little purse and kitten heels to go with the outfit too. I really want to make this a "grown up" ordeal for her.
Goodness, all of you have made me do a lot of pondering, and I been hesitant to respond until now. Please forgive my absence in not getting back to everyone right away. I am thankful for all of your insight, even the hard to read ones.
Post by: Nikko-chan on July 30, 2020, 11:26:28 pm
Wow, okay.
It's interesting the varying things that make her jealous. That one wedding and the flower girls - yes. Doing a natural look pageant and being around other little girls in dresses - no. Her handful of dance competitions with other, better skilled children - no. Going to a classical concert with daddy and I and seeing a featured child playing her violin - yes. Going to birthday parties and not being the birthday kid - no. Screaming "go away you dodo brain" (ok, I'll admit we laughed at this - shame on us, I know) at the TV at the child singer on America's Got Talent - a big yes.
We really don't know what will set her off.
But she does get set off. We fix this by taking her away from the situation and waiting it out until she stops crying, and then try to avoid that trigger (leaving before curtain call so she won't have to see the violin girl take a bow).
We ask why she is jealous, and she straight with us "ugh, not fair ... how come they get to do that?" about the flower girls. So it's not like she hides it. We tell her we can't do anything to make her un-jealous, but maybe we can maybe think of ways to see that what she is jealous of could be not fun. The dresses are probably itchy. Voilin kid's fingers probably hurt so much from practicing so much. Singing girl's voice probably can't talk alot because she has to save her voice.
Bolding mine. WHAT?! You basically tell your child that "oh its okay because those kids are probably uncomfortable doing what their doing and its not fun anyway"? This... honestly is a very wrong way to approach this. It still informs her whether or not you say so, that she is still the center of the whole world. What you should be doing is informing her little by little, that she is not the center of the world.
in the examples above:
Her: Why does Brian get to play the violin but I don;t!!!
You: Well Brian is quite talented isn't he? Thats not to say that you are not talented, but all of the other talented kids need a shot too. And won't it be fun, sitting in the audience, and listening to him play? And then after, when you see him, you can congratulate him on such a wonderful performance!
Her: Why was Mary chosen to sing and I wasnt?!?!
You: Well the teacher chose MAry to sing. And won't it be fun listening to her? You'll be able to sit in the audience and clap politely when she's done.
Her: Why can't I wear a flower girl dress too?!
You: Well you weren't chosen to be a flower girl, and that's absolutely okay. What we can do is practice how to be a nice guest at a wedding, and we will get you a nice dress for the wedding due to their dress code, because thats what a formal dress code means, and then mommy and daddy and you will have a fancy dinner before the wedding at home at some point so we can teach you fancy grown up manners a bit. Won't that be fun?
^The above. She's seven. She likely doesn't know theres different place settings and the like. Something like that might be fun for her to learn, based just on what you've told us here. It also prepares her for weddings and the like.
Post by: Mary Sunshine Rain on July 31, 2020, 01:24:37 am
And I agree with Nikko-chan--why would you give her downsides about the boy playing violin or a girl singing?!
It seems like she's telling you she wants to do these things. "How come they get to do that?"
Because they take lessons and they practice. That's how!
It's not easy to get there and do something in front of a lot of people. It takes a lot of guts. If she really wants to do that then find ways to give her those opportunities.
Post by: vintagegal on July 31, 2020, 06:12:53 am
Maybe tell her a story of a real princess, Alice of Battenberg, to let her know it's not all fluffy dresses and tiaras. It's more about what you do than how you look.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Alice_of_Battenberg
Oh, and as for the wedding? Is it possible to let her anticipate a big girl dance with her dad? Maybe something they can practice together?
Post by: Rose Red on July 31, 2020, 06:53:26 am
And I agree with Nikko-chan--why would you give her downsides about the boy playing violin or a girl singing?!
This. Don't put down others for their hard work, talent, or luck. It's called sour grapes. It can turn into a lifelong habit and she will never learn to appreciate or enjoy performances (plays, concerts, etc.) due to jealousy. Give credit where credit is due and the violin and singing kids deserves praise.
Does your daughter take any lessons? Taking lessons will show her how long and hard it takes. Maybe she'll look at children with brand new eyes and know how much work they do instead of just the end results of being in the spotlight.
I give you credit for reading our posts and taking it to heart.
Post by: oogyda on July 31, 2020, 08:46:49 am
And I agree with Nikko-chan--why would you give her downsides about the boy playing violin or a girl singing?!
This. Don't put down others for their hard work, talent, or luck. It's called sour grapes. It can turn into a lifelong habit and she will never learn to appreciate or enjoy performances (plays, concerts, etc.) due to jealousy. Give credit where credit is due and the violin and singing kids deserves praise.
Does your daughter take any lessons? Taking lessons will show her how long and hard it takes. Maybe she'll look at children with brand new eyes and know how much work they do instead of just the end results of being in the spotlight.
I give you credit for reading our posts and taking it to heart.
I agree that you shouldn't diminish other's successes. One good way to do this would be to talk with your daughter about how she would like other children to react to her successes. You know....the golden rule. Treat others how you would like to be treated.
Post by: TootsNYC on July 31, 2020, 09:38:09 am
It's so important for us all to like ourselves even though we're not the star.
I'm an alto. I never get the melody; I seldom star.
I'm also a copyeditor--I never write the article, I never get a byline, nobody knows my job even exists.
But I take phenomenal pleasure in contributing as an alto--take a soprano solo, and it's incredibly lovely. Add an alto line, and suddenly it's SO much richer, such a different effect. Neither is better--but my contribution makes a difference, and I'm proud of it.
I get great satisfaction in adding my grammatical and stylistic corrections; I make other people's work better, I help readers to understand articles without as much work. I preserve the credibility of my publication.
As a guest at a wedding, I often have a mission--to add to the flavor of the event. To make the host feel appreciated. (I always make it a point to go to the parent of whichever guest of honor--bride or groom--I am NOT related to and tell them how much our family admires their child; if they're the host, I thank them and tell them it's a lovely wedding).
Maybe get her invested in that part of the experience.
Help her get invested in the task of the listener to American Idol--to pay attention, to spot the things that deserve to be appreciated, like a particularly lovely or skilled passage.
I also wonder if a more long-lasting approach to her jealousy is to help her appreciate the other PERSON. To turn them into "people she cares about" instead of "people she is jealous of." So help her to appreciate the PERSON inside the violinist, and then to see the success of that person as a thing she is glad of for their sake.
The world tells us so often that life is a zero-sum game. And it's not. Helping her to see other people as real, as valued by her, might be pretty powerful.
And then...would she like to play violin? is there a real-life way she can scratch that itch?
Post by: TootsNYC on July 31, 2020, 09:39:08 am
Is she frustrated by feeling competitive (with the performers on TV), without having any way to compete?
And at the pageant, she felt competitive, but there WAS a way to compete. And even if she didn't win, she got her chance to compete.
Post by: oogyda on July 31, 2020, 09:42:49 am
"In a way, I kinda don't want this wedding to happen so we can avoid another meltdown."
With your update, it seems like she is overall a pleasant child where maybe you haven't had to deal with many meltdowns so it was easy to do what you could to avoid them. I think you may be at the point now where you have to look to the future and the type of *person* (not child) you would like to see her become. Very often, the hardest part of being a parent is saying no.
Remember. Doing the right thing is most often not the easiest thing.
Post by: gellchom on July 31, 2020, 09:45:26 am
I agree that pointing out the down sides of others' experiences is not a good choice.
Brielle seems to be putting far too much value on being the center of attention, especially with regard to looking like and being treated like a princess. You will be doing her a major kindness in helping her unlearn that. And don't blame yourself, by the way! It's hard not to think back on every princess outfit you bought her and such, but kids are who they are. They all need help in growing and maturing in one way or another. If she didn't take to it naturally, you could have bought her a hundred tiaras and wands, and they would just have collected dust.
I don't mean that she should not develop some area in which she can shine and get the applause. But as others have pointed out, it's really important to learn that no one is the very best in every area, and sometimes -- usually -- it is someone else's turn in the spotlight.
I had to learn this lesson, too -- I suppose we all do. I was a talented child, and I had to learn not to be jealous. So I do understand how she feels, although if she has to leave the room before bows, that's gotten pretty far, and she needs your help. (Some people never learn. I know an actor who says he never goes to see his friends' shows because "I know how it feels to be up there, and I just feel so stressed for them." Bull! :-) He just cannot stand to see someone else in the spotlight. Don't let her grow up to be that guy!)
Even more important, it's a recipe for unhappiness to think that nothing is worth doing unless you get attention and applause. Even in the area where her natural or developed talents do excel, it's important to learn that getting the prize/the A+/the standing ovation, while lovely, aren't the most important thing. Suppose she is a singer -- she needs to learn to get satisfaction from being an artist, not just from being a celebrity. If she takes up a sport, you can help her to learn to value seeing herself improve, being a good team member, and just feeling strong and energized -- not winning the trophy. Toots posted while I was writing this, and she put it so well.
A corollary is that she will be much happier if she learns to get joy from doing things in which she does NOT excel. There are other satisfactions to be gotten from being part of a team, from learning to challenge yourself, and from the simple happiness of creating art or music or participating in a sport, etc. My son, now grown, knew that most people wrote their college applications essays about what they were great at. He wrote instead about the opposite: about how there were things that came really easily to him, that he could excel in even with little effort -- but what he really loved was baseball. He was small, especially when he was little, and it wasn't long before he realized that no matter how hard he worked at it -- and boy, did he -- he would never even be mediocre. But, he wrote, he was so glad he stuck with it anyway instead of just doing the things that came easily. He said that it helped him learn to be a good leader and helper to people who struggled with the things he was naturally good at, such as the quiz bowl team. More important, he learned to do what he loved because he loved it, not because he would be the star. "Playing baseball doesn't come naturally to me," he concluded, "but loving it does." I was very proud of him for learning that. (He became a baseball sportscaster, by the way.)
Finally, I would try not to put emphasis on glamour and prettiness. There is just way, way too much focus on appearance for women. Teach her that it's fun to be pretty -- but it isn't important. I'd avoid pageants (even watching them).
This sent me back to my old copy of Dr. Spock, recently pulled out as I became a grandmother. In another context (baby talk), he wrote about "the little girl with corkscrew curls and fancy clothes who is the only child of a doting family. They are so pleased with her as a plaything that they forget she has to grow up. They ... show her that they love her best when she acts babyish and 'cute.' You can't blame her for playing up to them. But she will have a tough time when she gets around children her own age, because they won't think she's cute; they'll think she's awful." I'm not saying that this is Brielle! I'm sure she has plenty of friends and the babyishness is not on point at all from what you wrote. But you get the general idea: You aren't raising a fairy princess. You are raising her to be a happy, competent, confident woman, who is kind to and empathizes with others and is loved by her friends and valued by her community.
I think she's off to a very good start, in fact. She showed a lot of self-awareness in saying what she did about wanting to be the only child. Good for her for seeing that. No shame in her feeling that way and wishing she could be a flower girl. She just needs to learn a bit about how the world works, that she can't be the only child or the only star -- and that's okay! That's not what her family loves and values about her. You love her just because she's her, even if she never wins a trophy or a standing ovation.
Maybe it's time to invest in some books, toys, tools, instruments, lessons, and equipment that will broaden her horizons and get her to think of a wider range of things that will interest her and give her joy, as well as allow her to get to know and value others.
You and your spouse and family obviously love Brielle, want the best for her, and are willing to devote the time and resources for that. I'm sure this is all going to work out just fine.
Post by: SparklingIce on July 31, 2020, 09:46:50 am
I see what you guys mean about the whole downplaying of the talents. It's simply a way to distract her from her jealous moments, and we have a giggle through the tears thinking of ways of not-fun elements - "i don't wana hear when she hit a bad note screeeeeeech screeeeech!" We do not know any of those children personally, and in the midst of a meltdown, we can't have that "lets practice being a good audience for violin girl" talk as the talent would be over when we would be back at our seats.
Post by: TootsNYC on July 31, 2020, 10:03:33 am
Quote
I think she's off to a very good start, in fact. She showed a lot of self-awareness in saying what she did about wanting to be the only child. Good for her for seeing that. No shame in her feeling that way and wishing she could be a flower girl.
I want to echo this.
I think she shows some serious self-awareness, which is a great strength to have.
Maybe ask HER what would be a better way to react, or to feel. (and remind her that it's OK to be upset inside; the etiquette of the situation comes when you don't burden other people with your unfair or out-of-proportion feelings)
And then ask HER what she could do, what could she say to herself, that would help her get to appropriate behavior, or (even better), to be able to manage those emotions.
She sounds pretty self-aware; I bet she'd have some interesting things to say.
Maybe instead of "imagine how he could mess up on his violin," try "imagine if he was your cousin or your friend, and you had seen how much he practices; what would you want for him? Would you root for him?"
Post by: gellchom on July 31, 2020, 10:25:39 am
Consider getting her involved in group activities, possibly team sports, but even better things that are not competition at all. Maybe she and a couple of friends can have a little garden or a lemonade stand for a charity, or she could help teach a younger child something.
Post by: Aleko on July 31, 2020, 11:22:17 am
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I want to clarify that the thing about pageants and any other kind of competition is that they teach the opposite of what she seems to need right now. Life isn’t a competition, and needing to be a winner at all costs is not healthy.
But beauty pageants seem particularly unhealthy for her (for any little girl, come to that, but especially one who has been made to feel that she is and ought to be acknowledged as a special princess), given that they, unlike sports or music, don’t involve training and hard work to master real skills: they just require pretty girls to play up their prettiness to seduce the judges. As a preparation for adult life, that’s problematic to say the least.
Post by: PVZFan on July 31, 2020, 11:57:28 am
Simce some of you have mentioned talent - She has done a couple of natural pagents (not a serious effort, more of a fun "you get a sash and crown for winning in a category in the number of varieties we have" - best hair, dress, photogenic, etc - she got best Runway Walk) and been doing dance since she was 3 and a half and competes in both solo and group. She has placed but never won solo, but her troupe has won a couple of times. Sadly, all these competitions have come to an indefinite halt due to this virus thing. But she did plenty of performance when the world was still normal.
I see what you guys mean about the whole downplaying of the talents. It's simply a way to distract her from her jealous moments, and we have a giggle through the tears thinking of ways of not-fun elements - "i don't wana hear when she hit a bad note screeeeeeech screeeeech!" We do not know any of those children personally, and in the midst of a meltdown, we can't have that "lets practice being a good audience for violin girl" talk as the talent would be over when we would be back at our seats.
I'm impressed that you're taking our feedback and really thinking it through - way to jump into the board! Welcome!
I agree with many of the additional comments, I'll add just a couple things.
You mentioned up thread that your strategy is to calm her (by highlighting some of the unpleasantness) and then work to avoid the triggers in the future. I think you're doing Brielle a disservice by avoiding triggers. She's missing an opportunity to learn resiliency and how to emotionally regulate in a situation. You're emotionally regulating her both in the moment and overall. Have you heard the expression "You don't prepare the path for your child, you prepare your child for the path?" I'll add that young people who have the path prepared for them can get to a place where they shy away from any path that isn't pre-prepared. She's going to have to learn how to self-manage and handle difficult situations.
Second, the strategy to highlight the unpleasantness and have her giggle could lead to her finding faults and the "wrong" with a situation to feel better. Not a great strategy. I understand that saying "We have to share the spotlight" and reasoning through things when she upset and dysregulated isn't the right strategy - IMO, that's a "before and after" strategy. You need some in the moment techniques for her to calm - take some deep breaths, go to the restroom and splash her face with cold water (or run cold water over her wrists if she might muss her hair/ clothes), count backwards from 100 by 7s, run through the alphabet and think of a food that starts with every letter, etc. etc.
Then, when she's calm, you can process by highlighting that she can't always be the center of attention and we have to praise and appreciate talent from everyone. Someone else's light can burn bright without diminishing ours. (You might make that point with some candles in a cake/ cupcake. I could see that being a fun and tasty teaching moment.)
The final thing I'll say is the tendency to want to protect your child from unpleasant feelings and situations means you're a really caring mom who hates seeing her little one upset. Your intentions are noble. Consider thinking about what's best for "Future Brielle" and serves her well to manage your tendency to regulate her.
Post by: jpcher on July 31, 2020, 03:32:23 pm
Wow, okay.
Here goes, as I see that quite a for bit has happened since I was here last. How that for first impressions?
Let me start by saying that all of this is quite a come to Jesus-ish for me. I had no idea that one basic question could really make me think about certain aspects of how I raise my daughter, and some of it is, like you know our lives. Kinda makes me feel uncomfortable, even though none of you are being intentionally harsh. It just that I have come to realize a few things, it's eating at me.
SparklingIce -- Welcome to this board.
I don't have any advice for this situation mostly because I think that above posters have covered my thoughts so far.
I just wanted to let you know that I've been on this (and old) board since my husband passed away and my two daughters were in Freshman year HS and 7th grade.
Yeah, that was scary for me. Raising 2 latchkey daughters through their formative years while I was working full time.
I posted many questions about my daughters on the old board. The responses were, like you said, frighteningly insightful. While some of the responses seemed a bit harsh I read through every one of them. And learned many different viewpoints.
I'm not saying this site was my 'bible' of parenting but I did take some of the posts to heart. "Wow! I never thought of that before" type of thing and advice from here helped me raise two wonderful daughters who are in their mid-late 20s now. (Thank you Ehell & BadManners!)
What I'm trying to point out is please don't feel uncomfortable here. We are trying to help. Some of the previous posts may have sounded harsh to you but they were something that you haven't thought of before . . . an enlightenment of sorts.
I give you best wishes on raising a wonderful daughter. It isn't easy. Hopefully some of our thoughts will help.
Post by: gramma dishes on July 31, 2020, 07:02:58 pm
I want to clarify that the thing about pageants and any other kind of competition is that they teach the opposite of what she seems to need right now. Life isn’t a competition, and needing to be a winner at all costs is not healthy. COVID cancellations may be doing her a favor.
Consider getting her involved in group activities, possibly team sports, but even better things that are not competition at all. Maybe she and a couple of friends can have a little garden or a lemonade stand for a charity, or she could help teach a younger child something.
Well, yes, but COVID gets in the way here too. Those will be great ideas once we're back to something resembling normalcy.
Post by: Nikko-chan on August 01, 2020, 05:20:27 am
Simce some of you have mentioned talent - She has done a couple of natural pagents (not a serious effort, more of a fun "you get a sash and crown for winning in a category in the number of varieties we have" - best hair, dress, photogenic, etc - she got best Runway Walk) and been doing dance since she was 3 and a half and competes in both solo and group. She has placed but never won solo, but her troupe has won a couple of times. Sadly, all these competitions have come to an indefinite halt due to this virus thing. But she did plenty of performance when the world was still normal.
I see what you guys mean about the whole downplaying of the talents. It's simply a way to distract her from her jealous moments, and we have a giggle through the tears thinking of ways of not-fun elements - "i don't wana hear when she hit a bad note screeeeeeech screeeeech!" We do not know any of those children personally, and in the midst of a meltdown, we can't have that "lets practice being a good audience for violin girl" talk as the talent would be over when we would be back at our seats.
Okay so that second paragraph... that is bullying behavior. You are saying hurtful things about other people, to make your own child feel better. That is not okay. A better way to handle this would be, when she has a meltdown, take her away from the situation, and at home, once she has calmed, talk about her feelings. How did you feel today at the performance? Talk through her emotions. A child that age does have a lot of awareness about their own emotions, but they do need to be talked through and handled to curb further tantrumming. Your child will learn how to manage her emotions and learn what to do when she feels really strong emotions. Right now you are not teaching her that. You are instead, to protect her, teaching her its okay to make fun of other people. You say its distracting her. It might be but its not a positive distraction. A positive distraction might be this:
Child: *tantrums*
You: *removes her from the situation until she calms herself* So what do you think of that art project you were doing earlier today? Did you like how it came out? What do you want to have for dinner after we leave? etc etc.
The fact that, instead of doing something like that, you are inciting your otherwise sweet child, to talk about someone and bully someone when they aren't there is to me, frankly a bit horrifying. It is reinforcing to your daughter that she is all important, only her emotions matter, and not the emotions of the people you make fun of. You are treating the performers like objects and not as human beings with thoughts feelings and emotions.
At this point, take the advice of other posters. Leave Brielle in the care of a babysitter. She is just not mature enough to handle a wedding right now. Maybe next time.
Post by: Aleko on August 02, 2020, 02:47:49 am
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you are inciting your otherwise sweet child, to talk about someone and bully someone when they aren't there is to me, frankly a bit horrifying. It is reinforcing to your daughter that she is all important, only her emotions matter, and not the emotions of the people you make fun of. You are treating the performers like objects and not as human beings with thoughts feelings and emotions.
I agree with everything Nikko-chan said there, and in addition -
It's not only a horrid ploy: it's also flatly self-defeating. By talking in this way you are 100% validating your daughter's belief that her own special princessness entitles her to be the recipient of any attention or applause that may be available anywhere she goes even if she doesn't do a thing to earn it - and actually making things worse, by suggesting that any other children who do get attention and applause by showcasing a difficult skill are in effect stealing her rightful acclaim from her, and deserve to be punished in imagination by fantasising them fouling up their performance and suffering public humiliation: "Snigger, snigger! That'll teach that nasty kid not to practise her music for hours every day for years so she can steal Brielle's thunder!" It really makes no difference whether she knows the other girl or not: that's no way to teach her to think about other people.
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in the midst of a meltdown, we can't have that "lets practice being a good audience for violin girl" talk as the talent would be over when we would be back at our seats.
Nobody is suggesting that you have to do that on the spot; it's quite OK to keep that for later*. As PVZFan said, you need to establish a get-a-grip-on-myself formula that she and you know, so that when she starts going off on one you routinely whisk her into the restroom, splash water on her and make her do her counting to 50 / reciting the rhyme / whatever, and stand over her till she does and is calm again. Then ask if she's prepared to go back into the auditorium now and listen to the rest of the event or if you're going to have to take her straight home.
(The mother of one of my friends at primary school regularly carried a brown paper bag around with her, and if any child in her charge burst into tears she would make them put their face into it. It always worked like a charm: even the most hysterical sobs rapidly faded sheepishly into nothingness. Years later I read this comment on that ploy by Joan Didion: "As it happens, there is a sound physiological reason, something to do with oxygen, for doing exactly that, but the psychological effect alone is incalculable: it is difficult in the extreme to continue fancying oneself Cathy in Wuthering Heights with one’s head in a Food Fair bag.” Very true.)
*Edited to add: But be aware that no amount of uplifting moral talk about 'let's be nice to people, accept that they too are entitled to their chance to shine, let's learn to be happy for them when they do well instead of being jealous' is going to have any effect if what you are teaching her in practice is 'when I want to cry because people are clapping another kid and not me, what makes me feel better is imagining her fouling up embarrassingly in front of everyone so I can laugh about that'. It isn't easy to make words stick, but the learned skill of actually using aggression to adjust her brain chemicals to make her feel better is not something she will easily forget.
Post by: VorFemme on August 03, 2020, 10:16:21 am
She may end up a doctor, lawyer, pilot, nurse, CEO, teacher, or a career that hasn't quite been invented yet - but help her become a woman who can do *that* job with grace under pressure as well!
No rhinestone crown for the suit at the wedding, please...although you could playfully tell her that she showed real grace and was so grown up later (if she goes) and that you appreciate how much she's growing up into such a wonderful young lady (not a princess) who can go places and do things with her parents and other family members.
Post by: Hmmm on August 03, 2020, 05:35:00 pm
When my daughter was in Pre-K, she attended a school where the administrator really, really disliked the idea of referring to young girls as princesses. The school's main perspective was that a "princess" lives a different life and is considered "above" the rest of her social circle let alone those that "serve" her. So either all students at the school are princesses and princes or none are because they are all social equals. Their opinions have stuck with me for the last 20 years. The only person who was allowed to refer to our daughter as a princess was her grandfather and the joke was that she had a kingdom of 1, him.
"I been telling her how her suit is going to make her look sophisticated and classy, and she will have to act the part. Crying and sulking isn't either of those. If she still wants to keep up her "princess" thing, I said we can get a crown or a star shaped shaped brooch and we can pin it on her jacket lapel! Not obvious, but just enough to make her feel special. She can get a new little purse and kitten heels to go with the outfit too. I really want to make this a "grown up" ordeal for her.
So while it is not my place to tell you how to raise your daughter, your comment about perpetuating the princess thing surfaced the memories. I wish I still had some of the info they passed on, but I did a quick search and found a couple of articles that may give you a different perspective. No one's feelings will be hurt if you ignore this post.
https://www.npr.org/2011/02/05/133471639/saving-our-daughters-from-an-army-of-princesses
Item 4 here https://www.forbes.com/sites/learnvest/2012/06/28/7-ways-youre-hurting-your-daughters-future/#1e4e8a2b4462
https://www.yourtango.com/2015278551/moms-for-the-love-of-god-stop-calling-your-kid-a-princess
Raising a daughter in the 90's & 00's was hard enough with the just beginning stages of social media and the "look at me" culture. I don't envy you.
modified to correct formatting.
Post by: katiekat2009 on August 03, 2020, 07:02:22 pm
Post by: gellchom on August 04, 2020, 11:20:08 pm
Do consider encouraging Brielle’s interests in dance and whatever else she likes in a non-competitive situation. E.g., not a dance team that competes, but a good dance class, which will probably still have recitals and applause, but not winners and losers. (Probably better training, too.) If she likes fashion, let her learn to sew or design, not compete in pageants.
The idea is to focus on the skill or activity, not winning a prize for it and not competing with others. If she’s always in competition with others, it will be much harder for her to see them not as obstacles to her own success but as people with feelings, and to cheerfully let them have their turn and even root for them.
Post by: Aleko on August 07, 2020, 01:48:32 pm
Let’s take the wedding business. She sulked at a wedding last year and you’ve been so worried that she'd do the same this year that you actually were thinking of dressing her as a flower girl/princess: so clearly her last year's tantrum worked for her very powerfully. If you had actually done that - though I can hardly believe that in the end you really would have done such a thing - that would’ve been a 100% grand slam win for her: in effect you would have been conceding that "The power of Brielle’s need to shine, and the threat of a tantrum if she can’t, trumps everything - including propriety and ordinary guest good manners"!
Your next suggestion, of buying her the lovely pink sparkly suit of her choice to wear with a brooch and a bow instead of 'a plain nice church/Easter dress' as last time, so that she could look really special at the wedding, is not quite such a resounding victory but is still a pretty good result for her - especially as she has not actually promised not to have a tantrum! In the light of all the subsequent information I’m no longer worried by her statement that she’s 'still scared of a flower girl (or a few) being there': on the contrary, I’m truly awed at her instinctive strategic nous. She has characterised her tantrums as something that she has no control over but just happen to her as an epileptic fit or asthmatic attack might do, and it appears that you accept this is so - though it certainly isn't. * Thus she has both accepted your bribe to behave properly and still reserved the right to misbehave anyway. That's masterful!
Your fallback option was to leave her behind with her aunt. That would be still a modest win for her, because weddings can be pretty boring for young children anyway. They go on for a long time, their parents spend ages making dull adult chat with a lot of grownups she doesn’t know (so she's not merely not the star of the show, she doesn't even have your full attention). Spending the day with her adored aunt and being the centre of her attention is probably far more fun than attending a wedding in a 'plain nice dress', so her threat of tantrums has still gained her something. (I also suspect darkly that having promised her that lovely pink suit to wear to the wedding you wouldn’t have the heart to say 'oh well, you’re not going to need that then' and not buy it for her! So she might well score the sparkly outfit without even having to go to the tiresome old wedding.)
And perhaps most of all, she’s made this wedding all about herself. Made herself the centre of all your attention instead of you thinking about your friend, to the extent that you admitted you almost came to wish it wasn’t going to take place at all.
And then there are all those tantrums at concerts. Yes, some other child is getting all the attention of everyone there: she can’t do anything about that. But by having a meltdown she can stop her own parents, who ought only to care about her, from paying attention to and admiring this other child. And then you and your husband, it appears, reliably abandon this child's performance and rush out with her, comfort her, denigrate the other child - or at least her skills and hard work - to make her feel as good if not better as her. It sounds as though you don’t let yourselves show the slightest disappointment at missing that child’s performance, or let her know that her behaviour has embarrassed you in public. Rather, it sounds like a perfect love-fest: her parents, pulled firmly away from any other children and focusing on re-stressing their love for their princess, their only kid, which as you and she both know is what she wants most.
I don't mean to suggest at all that she is consciously manipulating you and your husband; she has just learned subconsciously from you to need your loving admiration and exclusive attention, and how to go about getting it. She may even subconsciously believe that it's what you too really want, since you seem to participate so lovingly and animatedly in her meltdowns.
* Which are almost certainly not uncontrollable. Does she ever have them, whatever the provocation, in front of an audience whose sympathy she can't count on? For instance, a teacher who might say 'Really, Brielle! Pull yourself together and behave!' Or the rest of her dance troupe, who might stand around and giggle 'Look at Brielle crying like a baby!" I doubt it. Which means that she has them because they work for her; and she's not likely to stop having them (why should she?) unless they stop working for her.
Post by: jpcher on August 08, 2020, 06:22:55 am
I think we're all pretty much in agreement and OP has stated that she is reading with interest.
I don't like the term, but dog-piling seems to fit.
Sorry to all that invested their time and advice. Just my thoughts.
Post by: oogyda on August 08, 2020, 08:18:53 am
I'd like to give this thread a rest for a while until Newbie-OP comes back to reply.
I think we're all pretty much in agreement and OP has stated that she is reading with interest.
I don't like the term, but dog-piling seems to fit.
Sorry to all that invested their time and advice. Just my thoughts.
I was hoping OP would come back, but I doubt that's likely after Aleko's post. It was rather harsh and would discourage most people.
Hopefully, she took some of it to heart and ignored the rest.
Post by: SparklingIce on August 08, 2020, 11:06:25 pm
I'll confess that the "it's not so fun" thought process is my own game I made up when I had my own annoyances with those with good fortune. Now this wasn't with everyone who had good things, just the ones that nagged me me in the wrong way. - "The Victoria's Secret model probably has an eating disorder anyway!" - "Ugh, I hate giant spiders and monster lizards, I can easily live without a vacation in Autralia." (But honestly, I DO want to go there) Basically, I come up with reasons to make that thing/place/situation less attractive and not worth being jealous of.
That's all I want for Bri to understand, it's not worth being jealous of!
But I guess that's not the best route to go and will be readjusted to the next time she get testy with another child. Thank goodness this hasn't happened as of late.
I really do want her to enjoy the talents of other children, the same way she would want other kids to watch her when she performs.
That being said, I still haven't been able to bring myself to contact the family about any children in the wedding party. The more I think on it, it is not my place to poke my nose in. This is only the second wedding she's been to and I truly want it to be fun for her if she is willing. We did attempt to make her come out and dance on the dance floor the last time, but she just didn't budge. Simply just LOOKING at the flower girls distressed her, she spent all her time hiding under the table. We left after cake and first dance, she hid her face in her daddy's shoulder as her carried her out. It was not the best experience for her, much less us. I'm hoping roughly a year's gap will have made her change a bit and really been playing up being a 7 year old little lady and not a cry baby 6 year old like last time. We still been on hold with ordering her her little suit and are looking at other dress up options, just in case of a growth spurt between now and the wedding. The idea of dressing up is making her excited since I started letting her play an active part in putting together her outfit for it. Maybe that was all we needed to do in the first place.
Sadly no dance comps or pagents are happening at the moment for our reigion, and we don't really feel all that safe doing them right now. But we DO love doing these very much and she has amazing confidence putting on makeup and fancy costumes. She really shines and enjoys being a part of such an activity. She's never even won a major title in either but she is thrilled none the less just to be a part of it.
Post by: Jem on August 09, 2020, 03:59:40 am
The descriptions of how Brielle has acted in various situations and was allowed to act at the last wedding make me cringe. She truly needs to work on her social skills, although I don’t know that a wedding is the place to practice. I wouldn’t want such behavior at my event.
She needs to learn to be happy for other people without rationalizing that they somehow don’t deserve it or that they really are “worse” than she is. The technique described by the OP to deal with jealousy comes across as really quite destructive to a child (and to an adult)!
Post by: Rose Red on August 09, 2020, 07:52:31 am
It seems you're afraid of your daughter's meltdowns and are willing to give up your lifestyle and sacrifice others so that she's never unhappy. What will happen when she grows up? People are less willing to understand and brush off a sulking teenager/adult like they are children.
Nobody is perfect and we all have moments of jealousy and sour grapes, but learning to be disappointed in public is an important part of life. Sometimes we can't manage to hide our disappointment but we still need to try to be polite when it happens.
Post by: gellchom on August 09, 2020, 08:19:26 am
I do agree with others that negativity about others, even secretly, isn’t a good strategy, though. In one of your posts, you indicated that it was a strategy you have used yourself. Maybe this will be good for both of you.
Success and blessings aren’t a zero sum game, and it’s an unhealthy trap to fall into thinking that way. Another person’s talents and triumphs do not reduce our own one bit. I love the candle analogy.
Brielle has many advantages and strengths that others do not. She didn’t get them at their expense. And they don’t have theirs at her expense, either.
I think she’s old enough to understand that.
This is why I suggest strongly that you steer her away from competitive situations. Dance classes, not competitive teams. Music and art lessons, not pageants. Exercise and play, not trophies. Focus on the skill and the joy of creation and improving, not WINNING. Because that’s the zero-sum mind set she needs to let go of — where only one person or team can be The Winner or The Star or The Only Child. You are in control of that, and she needs you to do it for her.
Improvement will be gradual and unsteady, so don’t be too hard on yourselves. She’s going to be fine.
Hugs to you both!
Post by: Rose Red on August 09, 2020, 09:10:49 am
I'm glad the OP is at least recognizing it does more harm than good in the long run to put down other children to make her daughter feel better and hopefully stop.
Post by: SparklingIce on August 10, 2020, 06:55:18 pm
It's difficult to say without looking like a pushy mom, but I WANT good things for Brielle. We all want wonderful things for our children that will give them a leg up in life.
I want you all to think of all the social media child superstars who have their own youtube channels and instagrams - think MiuMiu the guitar girl, Lane and all her handmade custom Disney costumes, Ryan and his toys, Claire and her professionally made music videos - if you don't known them I encourage you to look them up. Would you look down on them the same way you look down on dance competitions or pagentry? The parents of those those children also want what I want for Brielle. I'm sure you all want success for your children too! True that I don't give her her own channel or social media site, but I encourage and nurture talents and self confidence in her when she does her dance competitions. The pagents are not even a big blip on our radar, once a year since she was five, and they were natural look. No heavy makeup, no blingy dresses, no over the top glitz of the big circuit pagents. She gets to play dress up, show off, and take home a sash and crown (all participants do).
As for the princess thing, I KNOW we will have to cut down on that. And for the most part, we have. Without extracurriculars, social activities, etc. She's just a plain old little girl doing online lessons, playing in her wading pool, dressing up for pretend play, and doing crafts. Sometimes we take her nature trail biking and follows children's dance instruction videos via youtube. They are a bit lower level for her, but she likes them and it keeps her dance knowledge in check.
I tell you, she is a plain child who just has a few hiccups now and then with her envy. Please PLEASE don't consider her bad or spoiled.
Post by: oogyda on August 11, 2020, 06:53:42 am
I feel like I have to defend myself here with things being so judgy.
It's difficult to say without looking like a pushy mom, but I WANT good things for Brielle. We all want wonderful things for our children that will give them a leg up in life.
I want you all to think of all the social media child superstars who have their own youtube channels and instagrams - think MiuMiu the guitar girl, Lane and all her handmade custom Disney costumes, Ryan and his toys, Claire and her professionally made music videos - if you don't known them I encourage you to look them up. Would you look down on them the same way you look down on dance competitions or pagentry? The parents of those those children also want what I want for Brielle. I'm sure you all want success for your children too! True that I don't give her her own channel or social media site, but I encourage and nurture talents and self confidence in her when she does her dance competitions. The pagents are not even a big blip on our radar, once a year since she was five, and they were natural look. No heavy makeup, no blingy dresses, no over the top glitz of the big circuit pagents. She gets to play dress up, show off, and take home a sash and crown (all participants do).
As for the princess thing, I KNOW we will have to cut down on that. And for the most part, we have. Without extracurriculars, social activities, etc. She's just a plain old little girl doing online lessons, playing in her wading pool, dressing up for pretend play, and doing crafts. Sometimes we take her nature trail biking and follows children's dance instruction videos via youtube. They are a bit lower level for her, but she likes them and it keeps her dance knowledge in check.
I tell you, she is a plain child who just has a few hiccups now and then with her envy. Please PLEASE don't consider her bad or spoiled.
While I haven't seen the youtube and instagram channels you've mentioned, I have seen some of that type and others that showcase individual children and even whole families.......I have grandkids. The problem is that those are FAKE! They are putting on a show just as much as if it were a television show and they are giving your daughter (and you) very unrealistic expectations of how most people....to use your terminology, plain people....live their lives. And how they should be treated. They are the "star" of their channel and are treated as such. But, I think it's a mistake to make Brielle the "star" of your family. Immediate and extended.
I'm not suggesting or assuming you let her spend hours a day watching these things, but put away the tablet!!! Give up the youtube and instagram and go live YOUR life not influenced by how others try to make you believe they live theirs.
Post by: Kimpossible on August 11, 2020, 08:50:41 am
Even if Bri isn't ready yet, it doesn't mean that she's a spoiled child. Her behavior during a single big event is not who she is. You are a good parent, SparklingIce. Beauty pageants are fine events. As long as your daughter wants to participate, I think they are great bonding experiences.
BTW-DD will be turning 17 years old in the fall. She is a warm, bright, active person who wants to befriend everyone she meets. She is pleased to let others have their share of the spotlight. Princess at 7 does not always mean Diva at 17. :)
Post by: Runningstar on August 11, 2020, 10:11:11 am
I miss those days.
Post by: TootsNYC on August 11, 2020, 10:24:09 am
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Basically, I come up with reasons to make that thing/place/situation less attractive and not worth being jealous of.
But it IS worth being jealous of. Do you end up robbing yourself, and your DD, of something good when you do that?
It sounds like you're doing something quite similar to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, in which you train your brain to overwrite the distressing thoughts with something else.
And the technique is sound, but maybe a better message is to say, "I can enjoy this by watching other people. I can identify with them and get my 'fix' vicariously. I don't have to be the one who does it in order to enjoy or value it."
An analogy: My kids would want to buy something; I'd say no; they'd be upset. I started saying this: "Oh, that IS really neat/beautiful! Look how neat/beautiful it is! You are right. I'm sorry we can't buy it right now, but we can sure admire it! Why don't you pick it up and look at it.....OK, we need to move on, it's time to put it back. I'm sorry we can't buy it. But it sure is neat!" And then, having felt almost as if they had purchased it, they were willing to put it back on the shelf and walk away.
I was always careful to express sympathy with their sadness/distress/frustration. They're entitled to feel sad, it's not necessary for them to always be "on" and sunny and happy.
That's another point I wanted to make. I think that from ages 4 to 8 or so, there's huge pressure on kids from grownups to not be sad, or shy, or whatever. I think that's unfair, and that kids should be allowed to feel their feelings, and to figure out how to cope with them without pressure. it doesn't reflect on us that they're sad, or having a tantrum. The depth of their feelings is a mystery to them, so it sure as heck is a mystery to us.
Leaving them alone to feel what they want, and insisting on only basic manners (like, Sit in the chair, but it's OK if you sulk) is probably a better way to help them figure out how to manage those emotions. That's an internal process anyway, and leaving them alone to deal with it is best.
Came back to say, bcs I didn't work this in:
The most powerful way you can help her is to MODEL the proper behavior for her. Frame the situation ("Oh, this is her turn to be a flower girl; that's a pretty dress, isn't it? it would have been fun to be there, having everyone look at you, right? But it's her turn now. You'll have other moment. Please keep a polite face.") and then just act the way you think she should act. Act as though she is NOT unhappy or distressed. She will soon become that way, and she will have figured out internally how to regulate her own emotions.
Shielding our kids from difficult things--like her reactions to the flowergirls or competitors on TV--is not helping them. We need to let them struggle with those things on their own. They will learn more powerfully the things they teach themselves.
Post by: Winterlight on August 11, 2020, 06:55:15 pm
Kimpossible just said what I've been trying to figure out how to say. What a grown up did a year ago reflects on what kind of person they are. A year for a seven year old is a long long time ago. My daughter at seven fully intended to be a horse one day, she even picked a spot in our backyard where her stall would be. Sadly, it didn't work out for her ;D.
I miss those days.
I wanted to be a pirate sacking the Spanish Main. Or a horse.
I am now a librarian. It seemed like a better career choice. ;D ;D
Post by: oogyda on August 11, 2020, 07:01:55 pm
Kimpossible just said what I've been trying to figure out how to say. What a grown up did a year ago reflects on what kind of person they are. A year for a seven year old is a long long time ago. My daughter at seven fully intended to be a horse one day, she even picked a spot in our backyard where her stall would be. Sadly, it didn't work out for her ;D.
I miss those days.
I wanted to be a pirate sacking the Spanish Main. Or a horse.
I am now a librarian. It seemed like a better career choice. ;D ;D
Well, it's safer ;)
Post by: SparklingIce on August 12, 2020, 09:24:10 am
I don't believe that Bri will end up spoiled and self involved at an older age, but once we get over this lump, which I think we will after the chats I had with her, she'll be fine! I don't think a shiny new outfit will make her stand out too much at all. She wants to go to this wedding now, flower girl or not in presence. She knows that she is pretty, important, and will exude that as her role as guest. I even talked her up by telling her she can wow the crowd with her advanced dance moves - she LOVES showing off.
Ive been playing up being a wedding guest as much as possible - dancing, cake, tossing of rice/birdseed/confetti, bouquet toss, wedding favors, etc.
Post by: gramma dishes on August 12, 2020, 09:33:31 am
Kimpossible and Runningstar get it!!!! You guys understand me completely!!!
I don't believe that Bri will end up spoiled and self involved at an older age, but once we get over this lump, which I think we will after the chats I had with her, she'll be fine! I don't think a shiny new outfit will make her stand out too much at all. She wants to go to this wedding now, flower girl or not in presence. She knows that she is pretty, important, and will exude that as her role as guest. I even talked her up by telling her she can wow the crowd with her advanced dance moves - she LOVES showing off.
Ive been playing up being a wedding guest as much as possible - dancing, cake, tossing of rice/birdseed/confetti, bouquet toss, wedding favors, etc.
Sparkling Ice, somehow I don't think you're quite getting the point. Your daughter has to learn that there are occasions where it's totally appropriate to show off, but this wedding is not about Bri and you're still making it so.
Post by: SparklingIce on August 12, 2020, 10:18:07 am
Post by: Jem on August 12, 2020, 11:38:11 am
Sometimes you have to find all the good in a pile of bad. The more I play it up, the more she will be excited to be just a guest. I honestly don't think a dancing child will take away from anything going on. If people choose to notice her, then that would be great. If not, she still gets to dance! If she has fun with it, why not? That's what we tried to get her to do at the last wedding, to go out and dance and have fun despite how she felt emotionally. Besides, don't people love it when children go nuts on the dance floor at weddings? Children are practically made to be scene stealers! Tell me what wedding or big event with children in tow wasn't wasn't enhanced with them brightening up the place a bit?
I have to agree with gramma dishes. The way you described upthread how you deal with your own "jealousy" and how you have coached Brielle to act when she is jealous comes across, to me at least, as very dysfunctional and inappropriate. There is no reason to tear anyone else down or diminish their accomplishments in order to make yourself feel better. This is a very immature and counterproductive way of dealing with jealousy.
Your quote above makes it seem as though you really do not see how you are harming Brielle's development. She is not always going to be the scene stealer. She should not WANT to always be the scene stealer. Describing a wedding as "a pile of bad" is just.....weird to me. The point of the wedding is the wedding, and it is a good thing! If you really think the wedding is "a pile of bad" then you really should not attend. Really, don't go if you think that the wedding is only palatable if Brielle gets to steal the scene with her "advanced dance moves."
Post by: PVZFan on August 12, 2020, 11:54:27 am
I don't think we want to set the expectation that Brielle should have a goal to "steal the show," though. Scene stealing, if it happens, should be organic. When the boys were floor sliding at my wedding, I went out and called attention to it. I danced a little, pointed to one of them and sliiiiide. DH did too. We were all having fun and it wasn't about who had the spotlight. The kids also pulled it in when appropriate. They came off the floor for slow dances. My sorority sisters and I have a song we all do, we did that and I don't remember them on the floor then. (There was likely some coaching from their parents to get them off the floor.)
I think one piece we haven't quite touched on is that people like people who make them feel good. That saying about people won't remember what you said or did, but they'll remember how you made them feel is true. Teaching Brielle how to give an honest compliment, engage someone in a friendly manner, and show interest in them will set her up for social success and being a good guest. (Props to you for talking up how to be a good guest, I think that could just enhance it a bit.)
Post by: Rose Red on August 12, 2020, 12:09:30 pm
Yes, I *do* understand she's only 7 years old and normally a good kid. But the rare times when other children are in the spotlight still need to be addressed. Teach her to be happy for other people, just as she'd want others to be happy when it's her in the spotlight. So tell her to dance because it's fun and she likes it and she's good at it, but showing off is for recitals. This wedding is about the HC. Other people (including other children) are important too.
Post by: Runningstar on August 12, 2020, 12:54:04 pm
Sometimes you have to find all the good in a pile of bad. The more I play it up, the more she will be excited to be just a guest. I honestly don't think a dancing child will take away from anything going on. If people choose to notice her, then that would be great. If not, she still gets to dance! If she has fun with it, why not? That's what we tried to get her to do at the last wedding, to go out and dance and have fun despite how she felt emotionally. Besides, don't people love it when children go nuts on the dance floor at weddings? Children are practically made to be scene stealers! Tell me what wedding or big event with children in tow wasn't wasn't enhanced with them brightening up the place a bit?
I agree with you. 7 is an age where Santa and fairies still can really possibly exist. If a child dances, then great! I'm sure that she isn't being encouraged to shout, flail about, run into people, or join in for the father/daughter dance!
Really, this whole thread has felt off to me. This is a new member, and I think that it is time to lighten up on her question. SparklingIce has responded politely and while we all don't agree on what is best, I am sure that everyone really does mean well by their responses. I guess that it is that the tone of the responses seem to be off? It probably has a lot to do with our geographical locations and customs. No insult intended.
Post by: Rose Red on August 12, 2020, 01:35:50 pm
Sometimes you have to find all the good in a pile of bad. The more I play it up, the more she will be excited to be just a guest. I honestly don't think a dancing child will take away from anything going on. If people choose to notice her, then that would be great. If not, she still gets to dance! If she has fun with it, why not? That's what we tried to get her to do at the last wedding, to go out and dance and have fun despite how she felt emotionally. Besides, don't people love it when children go nuts on the dance floor at weddings? Children are practically made to be scene stealers! Tell me what wedding or big event with children in tow wasn't wasn't enhanced with them brightening up the place a bit?
I agree with you. 7 is an age where Santa and fairies still can really possibly exist. If a child dances, then great! I'm sure that she isn't being encouraged to shout, flail about, run into people, or join in for the father/daughter dance!
Really, this whole thread has felt off to me. This is a new member, and I think that it is time to lighten up on her question. SparklingIce has responded politely and while we all don't agree on what is best, I am sure that everyone really does mean well by their responses. I guess that it is that the tone of the responses seem to be off? It probably has a lot to do with our geographical locations and customs. No insult intended.
I think all we're trying to do is to have the OP encourage Bri to dance for fun and a good time, and not "wow the crowd" because she "loves to show off." It could lead to disappointment. And then what? Will they have to go home early again like last year?
Will Bri really be happy to just dance even if not enough guests notice? Will she be ok if the flower girls also "brighten the place up?" I hope so, but the OP needs to prepare Bri for any outcome and we, as outsiders, can see things she may not have thought off. The OP doesn't have to take any of our advice, although she's been graciously acknowledging and applying the advice she feels can help.
Post by: SparklingIce on August 12, 2020, 01:51:26 pm
Post by: Fancypants on August 12, 2020, 01:52:17 pm
Post by: TootsNYC on August 12, 2020, 01:59:29 pm
Quote
...The way you described upthread how you deal with your own "jealousy" and how you have coached Brielle to act when she is jealous comes across, to me at least, as very dysfunctional and inappropriate. There is no reason to tear anyone else down or diminish their accomplishments in order to make yourself feel better. This is a very immature and counterproductive way of dealing with jealousy.
Your quote above makes it seem as though you really do not see how you are harming Brielle's development. She is not always going to be the scene stealer. She should not WANT to always be the scene stealer. Describing a wedding as "a pile of bad" is just.....weird to me. The point of the wedding is the wedding, and it is a good thing! If you really think the wedding is "a pile of bad" then you really should not attend. Really, don't go if you think that the wedding is only palatable if Brielle gets to steal the scene with her "advanced dance moves."
Quote
... OP, you are exhausting and just not getting it. The head space, time and energy you are putting into cajoling your child into behaving appropriately is mind boggling. You have created this behavior and you continue to enable it.
This kind of language bothers me. It's not very welcoming or friendly, and not at all kind.
why would anyone want to keep coming back to have conversations here if this is what they get?
I'm not saying you have to always agree, but let's not use mean words.
Post by: Lady B on August 12, 2020, 02:20:36 pm
While there is no obligation for anyone asking for advice to take the advice that they get, it is important they carefully consider it out of respect for the people who took the time to respond.
By the same token, if you don't feel someone is "getting it" then the onus is on you to either let it go or make your position more clear.
What's not good is attacking the OP, and attacking each other because you don't agree with what they are saying, how they are saying it, etc, etc, etc.
Also remember on Ehell when an OP would become defensive--that's when the fur would fly. It seems to be a law of the universe. It's hard for OPs to realize that the more defensive they become, the more that is read as not being open to listening to the advice they asked for in the first place! It's a downward spiral.
Everyone here is better than that!
So, get this back on track! :)
Post by: Lady B on August 12, 2020, 02:24:09 pm
Aleko, gramma dishes and Jem have hit the nail on the head. OP, you are exhausting and just not getting it. The head space, time and energy you are putting into cajoling your child into behaving appropriately is mind boggling. You have created this behavior and you continue to enable it.
It's never ok to address an OP like this. If you find someone exhausting go take a nap! 8)
Post by: Dr. F. on August 12, 2020, 02:30:45 pm
Kimpossible just said what I've been trying to figure out how to say. What a grown up did a year ago reflects on what kind of person they are. A year for a seven year old is a long long time ago. My daughter at seven fully intended to be a horse one day, she even picked a spot in our backyard where her stall would be. Sadly, it didn't work out for her ;D.
I miss those days.
I wanted to be a pirate sacking the Spanish Main. Or a horse.
I am now a librarian. It seemed like a better career choice. ;D ;D
Well, it's safer ;)
Maybe.
Post by: SparklingIce on August 12, 2020, 03:31:49 pm
Post by: oogyda on August 12, 2020, 04:41:39 pm
Let's all just take a breath. No one here has any bad intent. Maybe just refocus a bit and stick to the issues at hand.
While there is no obligation for anyone asking for advice to take the advice that they get, it is important they carefully consider it out of respect for the people who took the time to respond.
By the same token, if you don't feel someone is "getting it" then the onus is on you to either let it go or make your position more clear.
What's not good is attacking the OP, and attacking each other because you don't agree with what they are saying, how they are saying it, etc, etc, etc.
Also remember on Ehell when an OP would become defensive--that's when the fur would fly. It seems to be a law of the universe. It's hard for OPs to realize that the more defensive they become, the more that is read as not being open to listening to the advice they asked for in the first place! It's a downward spiral.
Everyone here is better than that!
So, get this back on track! :)
The biggest problems arise when some posters tell others what tone they *should* use.
Post by: Lady B on August 12, 2020, 06:34:08 pm
Let's all just take a breath. No one here has any bad intent. Maybe just refocus a bit and stick to the issues at hand.
While there is no obligation for anyone asking for advice to take the advice that they get, it is important they carefully consider it out of respect for the people who took the time to respond.
By the same token, if you don't feel someone is "getting it" then the onus is on you to either let it go or make your position more clear.
What's not good is attacking the OP, and attacking each other because you don't agree with what they are saying, how they are saying it, etc, etc, etc.
Also remember on Ehell when an OP would become defensive--that's when the fur would fly. It seems to be a law of the universe. It's hard for OPs to realize that the more defensive they become, the more that is read as not being open to listening to the advice they asked for in the first place! It's a downward spiral.
Everyone here is better than that!
So, get this back on track! :)
The biggest problems arise when some posters tell others what tone they *should* use.
Or when they passively aggressively call out someone they have issues with...
Focus! FOCUS!!!
Post by: lisastitch on August 12, 2020, 07:41:04 pm
The two books that really helped me were How to Talk so Kids Will Listen, and Listen so Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber, and Raising Your Spirited Child , by Mary Kurcinka. The first talks about listening to the emotions behind the actions and addressing and acknowledging them, while also establishing rules for proper behavior. The second has suggestions for dealing with a child who is "more intense, sensitive, perceptive, persistent, and energetic". Both books have been around a while, but I think they're still available.
Post by: vintagegal on August 13, 2020, 06:26:49 am
We are working on it the best we can, especially for an event that is over 3 months away. We can either play up the excitement of something that was a bad experience and make her look forward to it, or we can just leave it alone. I'd rather the former. I personally trust my daughter will be able to handle it when the time comes. We can't predict what she will do, but as long as we make her feel good about being a guest, it's a step in the right direction. What more can we do?
I bet she will be fine. She's 7. Let's not expect too much from her. Either she has a good time and behaves, or she can't handle it and you all make an early exit. Either way, not a big deal.
Sounds like she has good parents.
Post by: gellchom on August 13, 2020, 07:13:58 am
I do agree with the posters who have said that encouraging Brielle to think about how she can steal the scene and be the focus of attention is a mistake, though. I believe that will be counterproductive.
This is important: She may well have internalized that what everyone loves and values about her — including her parents — is that she is exceptional, a star, a princess. But of course that’s not true! You have told us that she is funny and creative and clever. She is kind to her friends and a good team member. You value her character, not just her pizzazz. Most important, you love her just because she is HER, not because she is a “winner” or a “star.”
It’s easy to assume she would know that naturally. But she very well might not. She needs to hear it from YOU, over and over, and more important, SEE it in how you respond to her and talk about situations and how big a deal you make about “Star” moments and how big a deal you make about character moments and audience and friend moments. I have seen many children, especially ones who are exceptional in some way (talent, brains, beauty, etc.), who don’t realize this. They are afraid that if they don’t get the A+ or the trophy or the attention on the dance floor that they will disappoint their parents. Worse, if their sense of identity depends on it, they won’t even be themselves anymore if they don’t.
That’s why I suggested steering her away from competitive situations, to unlearn that zero-sum, “if someone else has attention or success, then I don’t, and that’s what counts” mind set, as exemplified in her “dodo head” response to a talented child on TV.
Yes, of course all parents want success for their children. But success does not by any means have to be celebrity or stardom, especially not the empty kind afforded by social media fame. Not every parent wants that for their child, much less to risk a “Baby Jane.” I’m sorry you felt some of us look down on pageants and competitive dance teams. I’m not saying they’re bad! Just that they may not be the best context for little Brielle right now, as she learns to value dancing and singing for the pure joy of it, not for the attention it gets her.
You have a great opportunity handed to you right now with the wedding: you can talk about how much fun it will be to dance, not about how much attention it will get her. Guess what the dessert will be. Ask what color flowers she would choose. See what I mean? Help her learn to enjoy things that aren’t focused on herself.
And I repeat: she’s a kid! Her character and self-esteem are forming, not formed. You’ve caught this early and know what you need to do to help her get on track to be a confident, happy woman, not a superannuated fairy princess :). All kids need that with one thing or another. You’re doing fine.
Post by: DaDancingPsych on August 13, 2020, 11:09:53 am
I have been part of the dance competition world for years. I don’t have as much first hand pageant knowledge, but hopefully enough to get me by. Like all things that our children participate in, they can be positive experiences if done correctly. For example, if you allow your child to participate in soccer, but you insist that winning at all costs is the only thing that matters, then no, the lessons of teamwork and sportsmanship will be lost. The same goes for dance and pageants; there are many positive lessons to be learned. I think some of the poo-pooing on these activities may have come from a misunderstanding. They are nothing like the reality TV shows out there. ::)
Even though you cannot participate in dance competitions at the moment, I think that you could take advantage of the interest to begin practicing some of the skills discussed here. YouTube has so many videos from dance competitions (and so many other activities and weddings with flower girls, too.) You could watch a video with her and witness the reaction. Maybe the lack of real time will create a more positive reaction, which is great. You can praise her and even add your own positive commentary. If she reacts less favorably or with any jealousy (even if masked as negative comments towards the person), you can practice finding good in the performance. The advantage I see is that you are in the comfort of your own home to practice these skills and will not feel the public judgement while practicing.
When you return back to competing live, remember to celebrate more than just your daughter’s performance. Placing is wonder and should be commended, but point out to her when she does positive things in other areas. “I thought it was wonderful that you applauded for everyone at awards!” “That was so great that you helped Sally out by sharing your bobby pins!” “I’m proud that you hugged Denise after she danced.” And don’t just compliment your daughter within group dances, point out what other kids did well. “Shelly has been working so hard on her pirouettes and she totally nailed them today!” Also some schools have started handing out good job trinkets to students from other schools. Usually it’s a piece of candy and a business card that says something positive. The child hands it to another child (stranger) after watching her perform and compliments her. It’s meant to teach sportsmanship and it might be something fun for the two of you to do (or you could even volunteer to assist the entire dance school with doing it.) Then your daughter would have to find another dancer who she appreciates and tell them that. That might help her with some of her feelings.
Also, I wanted to say that I do think that finding the fun things about weddings is a good idea. But dancing as a wedding guest isn’t about showing off one’s skills; it’s about connecting with others. I might stress how fun it will be to dance together and get to do the silly dances. My best wedding memories are dancing with my uncle who has no rhythm, not being put in the spotlight for my dancing skills.
Post by: TootsNYC on August 13, 2020, 11:38:07 am
Is their time better? their form better? their score better?
Everyone knows that only 3 people out of the 18 competing will stand on the medal platform.
And everyone knows that you cannot impede the performance of another athlete; it's not just rude, it's impossible! (unlike basketball, e.g., where you can block a shot or steal a pass)
You can only affect you, and your own performance.
But that has a lot of power.
And it's a useful mindset in lots of situations.
It's why "personal best" is such an achievement in track & field.
Post by: Nikko-chan on August 13, 2020, 09:30:41 pm
Also, I wanted to say that I do think that finding the fun things about weddings is a good idea. But dancing as a wedding guest isn’t about showing off one’s skills; it’s about connecting with others. I might stress how fun it will be to dance together and get to do the silly dances. My best wedding memories are dancing with my uncle who has no rhythm, not being put in the spotlight for my dancing skills.
wanted to pop in here. I used to swing dance (not competitively) but my favorite memories of swing dancing? Where everyone that was still there would gather in a group and do the "penguin dance" (arms held straight down, hands out at our sides and you sorta hop from foot to foot) it was fun, and a good memory with a great group of people. And like that wedding memory with your uncle, thats what this was about. Just being silly with my friends.
Post by: syfygeek on August 14, 2020, 09:13:04 am
We are working on it the best we can, especially for an event that is over 3 months away. We can either play up the excitement of something that was a bad experience and make her look forward to it, or we can just leave it alone. I'd rather the former. I personally trust my daughter will be able to handle it when the time comes. We can't predict what she will do, but as long as we make her feel good about being a guest, it's a step in the right direction. What more can we do?
SparklingIce, all you can do is coach your daughter to be the best her she can be. There's been good advice given, take what works for you and give it your best shot.
If there is going to be dancing, teach your daughter the Cha Cha slide or one of the others. Then she can join the crowd and throw down if it's played. And it will be something fun for the two of you to do at home.
Post by: DaDancingPsych on August 15, 2020, 12:10:22 pm
Also, I wanted to say that I do think that finding the fun things about weddings is a good idea. But dancing as a wedding guest isn’t about showing off one’s skills; it’s about connecting with others. I might stress how fun it will be to dance together and get to do the silly dances. My best wedding memories are dancing with my uncle who has no rhythm, not being put in the spotlight for my dancing skills.
wanted to pop in here. I used to swing dance (not competitively) but my favorite memories of swing dancing? Where everyone that was still there would gather in a group and do the "penguin dance" (arms held straight down, hands out at our sides and you sorta hop from foot to foot) it was fun, and a good memory with a great group of people. And like that wedding memory with your uncle, thats what this was about. Just being silly with my friends.
I have been swing dancing for over 20 years now. :o I have never heard of the penguin dance, but I need to find this now!!!
Post by: oogyda on August 15, 2020, 01:30:22 pm
Also, I wanted to say that I do think that finding the fun things about weddings is a good idea. But dancing as a wedding guest isn’t about showing off one’s skills; it’s about connecting with others. I might stress how fun it will be to dance together and get to do the silly dances. My best wedding memories are dancing with my uncle who has no rhythm, not being put in the spotlight for my dancing skills.
wanted to pop in here. I used to swing dance (not competitively) but my favorite memories of swing dancing? Where everyone that was still there would gather in a group and do the "penguin dance" (arms held straight down, hands out at our sides and you sorta hop from foot to foot) it was fun, and a good memory with a great group of people. And like that wedding memory with your uncle, thats what this was about. Just being silly with my friends.
I have been swing dancing for over 20 years now. :o I have never heard of the penguin dance, but I need to find this now!!!
I googled it. It's what I've always known as The Bunny Hop
https://folkdancefootnotes.org/dance/a-real-folk-dance-what-is-it/1st-generation-dances/childrens-dances-1st-generation-or-living/penguin-dance-bunny-hop-the-worlds-66-year-old-dance-craze/
Post by: SparklingIce on August 15, 2020, 02:18:08 pm
I think we are going to be okay, as most likely the baby will not be up and awake during the reception. And babies never have been a threat to Brielle, she likes them! Finding this out is a HUGE relief. Now instead of dreading the worst, I know this will probably be smooth sailing for us.
I am TRULY thankful both for the helpful and somewhat harsh advice from the folks on here. But honestly, I did realize a lot about how we have brought up our daughter. I never had done so much thinking about what some of you called "princess culture". It was hard to want to lash out and argue back, but it was difficult to because I actually agreed with some of the stuff said. It's difficult to explain.
Certain behaviors I know will have to be guarded, but this will be a gradual process. Who can fix things over night anyways?
So there ya got it guys. All kinds of fretting over what was nothing.
Post by: DaDancingPsych on August 15, 2020, 04:53:32 pm
Also, I wanted to say that I do think that finding the fun things about weddings is a good idea. But dancing as a wedding guest isn’t about showing off one’s skills; it’s about connecting with others. I might stress how fun it will be to dance together and get to do the silly dances. My best wedding memories are dancing with my uncle who has no rhythm, not being put in the spotlight for my dancing skills.
wanted to pop in here. I used to swing dance (not competitively) but my favorite memories of swing dancing? Where everyone that was still there would gather in a group and do the "penguin dance" (arms held straight down, hands out at our sides and you sorta hop from foot to foot) it was fun, and a good memory with a great group of people. And like that wedding memory with your uncle, thats what this was about. Just being silly with my friends.
I have been swing dancing for over 20 years now. :o I have never heard of the penguin dance, but I need to find this now!!!
I googled it. It's what I've always known as The Bunny Hop
https://folkdancefootnotes.org/dance/a-real-folk-dance-what-is-it/1st-generation-dances/childrens-dances-1st-generation-or-living/penguin-dance-bunny-hop-the-worlds-66-year-old-dance-craze/
Thanks for sharing! Yes, I would have called it the bunny hop, too! Still fun!!!
Post by: chigger on August 15, 2020, 08:15:07 pm
A BABY FLOWER GIRL!!! Yes, I did some mommy-snooping in the bride's face book and I found out there is gonna be a flower baby, groom's niece who will be 8 months at wedding time.
I think we are going to be okay, as most likely the baby will not be up and awake during the reception. And babies never have been a threat to Brielle, she likes them! Finding this out is a HUGE relief. Now instead of dreading the worst, I know this will probably be smooth sailing for us.
I am TRULY thankful both for the helpful and somewhat harsh advice from the folks on here. But honestly, I did realize a lot about how we have brought up our daughter. I never had done so much thinking about what some of you called "princess culture". It was hard to want to lash out and argue back, but it was difficult to because I actually agreed with some of the stuff said. It's difficult to explain.
Certain behaviors I know will have to be guarded, but this will be a gradual process. Who can fix things over night anyways?
So there ya got it guys. All kinds of fretting over what was nothing.
I have not chimed in until now, but for me(personally) if I thought any of my children would have a meltdown at such an event as a wedding, it would never cross my mind to bring them. If you cannot trust her to behave, leave her with her aunt! I find it really strange, that you say "a baby flower girl! And most likely the baby will not be up and awake"! What happens if Baby Flower Girl is up and awake and being cooed and doted over? Your kid is going to ruin another wedding for her parents: just leave her at home.
Post by: chigger on August 15, 2020, 08:23:47 pm
Certainly the wedding isn't a pile of bad for me, we adore the bride and her family. But to a little girl who had a bad experience at her last one, it's not gonna feel very welcoming. So why not play up all the good things she can participate in? We missed so much cause of last time that this wedding will be made such a fuss over until we actually go!
Your daughter did not have a bad experience, she was just purely jealous! You and your spouse had a bad experience, so just don't take her, if you can't trust her to behave.
Post by: Jem on August 15, 2020, 10:21:30 pm
A BABY FLOWER GIRL!!! Yes, I did some mommy-snooping in the bride's face book and I found out there is gonna be a flower baby, groom's niece who will be 8 months at wedding time.
I think we are going to be okay, as most likely the baby will not be up and awake during the reception. And babies never have been a threat to Brielle, she likes them! Finding this out is a HUGE relief. Now instead of dreading the worst, I know this will probably be smooth sailing for us.
I am TRULY thankful both for the helpful and somewhat harsh advice from the folks on here. But honestly, I did realize a lot about how we have brought up our daughter. I never had done so much thinking about what some of you called "princess culture". It was hard to want to lash out and argue back, but it was difficult to because I actually agreed with some of the stuff said. It's difficult to explain.
Certain behaviors I know will have to be guarded, but this will be a gradual process. Who can fix things over night anyways?
So there ya got it guys. All kinds of fretting over what was nothing.
I am not sure where to start, and I don’t want to dogpile on what what was said before, but your perspective is concerning. I cannot tell if you are trolling? Anyway, I do hope that Brielle is able to not destroy another wedding,
Post by: Amara on August 15, 2020, 11:40:35 pm
Post by: Mary Sunshine Rain on August 15, 2020, 11:53:04 pm
I think we are going to be okay, as most likely the baby will not be up and awake during the reception. And babies never have been a threat to Brielle, she likes them! Finding this out is a HUGE relief. Now instead of dreading the worst, I know this will probably be smooth sailing for us.
This paragraph sounds too much like someone who is being held hostage and not enough like someone who is a parent in charge of a 7 year old.
Up til now, I haven't felt like we were being trolled, but I'm getting that feeling now!
Post by: Lady B on August 16, 2020, 12:44:14 am
Post by: gellchom on August 16, 2020, 06:57:08 am
This was a troll -- sorry folks!
Wow! Had me fooled. How did you figure that out, Lady B?
Post by: Rose Red on August 16, 2020, 08:04:43 am
This was a troll -- sorry folks!
It was an interesting discussion anyway because there *are* people out there raising spoiled little princesses. If they read this thread, maybe they'll recognize themselves.
Post by: Lady B on August 16, 2020, 12:07:07 pm
This was a troll -- sorry folks!
It was an interesting discussion anyway because there *are* people out there raising spoiled little princesses. If they read this thread, maybe they'll recognize themselves.
Let's not give trolls redeeming values. This wasn't just a discussion, it was a thread that had to be heavily moderated and a lot of that was due to the behavior of the troll, in the ridiculousness of her story and her responses, the last of which, outed her.
Post by: gellchom on August 16, 2020, 12:22:48 pm
Sorry if I’m misunderstanding the term “troll” — I am fortunate to have little experience with them.
Either way, pretty “meta” given that the topic was about excessive need for attention. :)
Post by: Lady B on August 16, 2020, 01:25:59 pm
So, like, a troll in the sense of the whole story being made up from the get-go just to stir up responses in the forum? Or a troll in the sense of starting out with at least some real story or question but then digging in and embellishing when they didn’t get the answer or support they hoped for?
Sorry if I’m misunderstanding the term “troll” — I am fortunate to have little experience with them.
Either way, pretty “meta” given that the topic was about excessive need for attention. :)
Ha! So true!
False from the get-go. I don't want to say too much, honestly. I think if you read through her posts in retrospect, you can see that she was trolling--pushing buttons to get an emotional response. And I think you are correct that it was done for attention, or possibly out of boredom.
It's her behavior that was wrong. People here behaved correctly, even if they crossed lines because they were being manipulated. Misusing someone's natural empathy, their quickness to defend someone they feel is being piled upon, but also misusing the concern people have to be brave enough to offer what they know is harsh criticism--for entertainment, is just disgusting.
And I realize it happens all the time. And there may have been trolling that I have missed on here. Some people are truly masters at it. But, it's just part of being on the internet.
But, I truly appreciate and salute all of you who gave of yourselves, were empathetic, caring, tough, and concerned--THAT was REAL!!!! THAT was TRUE!!!!
Post by: DaDancingPsych on August 17, 2020, 09:00:50 am
Post by: Hmmm on August 17, 2020, 10:11:07 am
I had to bow out of this chain about halfway through because I couldn't decide if it was a troll or a parent with such "different" parenting perspectives that I wouldn't be able to offer anything constructive.
Post by: Runningstar on August 17, 2020, 12:47:33 pm
Post by: Nikko-chan on August 17, 2020, 01:13:43 pm
Post by: DaDancingPsych on August 17, 2020, 02:12:57 pm
To those that asked after the "penguin dance" the link posted was not the one we did. At the end of the night we'd gather in an almost huddle, and do it. It was basically us hopping from foot to foot in an odd side to side manner with our legs held straight, arms down straight at sides, hands held out with the palms down. We looked quite like a flock of penguins and that's how we came up with the name :)
Hmmm... interesting. I definitely picture what you are describing; I am just sad that I have never seen or heard of it. I wonder if it's a vintage dance? Either way, I appreciate the share!
Post by: gramma dishes on August 17, 2020, 03:52:45 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf0uKmKwnKs&list=PLDRDbe1SEBVd22PPBbDpy91UUo_rCYJoB&index=8&t=0s
Post by: gellchom on August 17, 2020, 04:01:04 pm
So, what do you think she was trying for? To shock people and get the negative feedback she got, and keep on ramping it up? Or was she hoping to get support for the "honorary bridesmaid" idea?
What made her sound more real was her saying she was listening and learning. What was that all about, whatever she was hoping for?
Post by: oogyda on August 17, 2020, 05:16:17 pm
To those that asked after the "penguin dance" the link posted was not the one we did. At the end of the night we'd gather in an almost huddle, and do it. It was basically us hopping from foot to foot in an odd side to side manner with our legs held straight, arms down straight at sides, hands held out with the palms down. We looked quite like a flock of penguins and that's how we came up with the name :)
Something like this?
https://www.google.com/search?q=mary+poppins+penguins&oq=mary+poppins+pe&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0j46j0l2.144405j0j4&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Post by: Jem on August 18, 2020, 08:22:08 am
Well, I'm glad there really isn't a Brielle who is being warped by her parents and ruining people's weddings and concerts! But I do worry about this poster. She must be awfully unhappy to get thrills from doing something like this.
So, what do you think she was trying for? To shock people and get the negative feedback she got, and keep on ramping it up? Or was she hoping to get support for the "honorary bridesmaid" idea?
What made her sound more real was her saying she was listening and learning. What was that all about, whatever she was hoping for?
I wonder if she didn't just want something to do? I know tons of people on social media who will argue nearly anything simply to have something to do.
Post by: Aleko on August 18, 2020, 09:46:50 am
Quote
So, what do you think she was trying for? To shock people and get the negative feedback she got, and keep on ramping it up? Or was she hoping to get support for the "honorary bridesmaid" idea?
It’s my feeling that while Brielle was an invention, she embodied some psychological reality for SparklingIce. Even with hindsight her posts read as though she was genuinely invested in it: I don’t think she wrote them just to wind us up. Maybe it was her way of working through her own need to be special, and be acknowledged as special by her own parents.
Quote
What made her sound more real was her saying she was listening and learning. What was that all about, whatever she was hoping for?
To keep us paying attention to her and responding to her, is my guess. Clearly getting attention is the driver here.
Post by: DaDancingPsych on August 19, 2020, 09:50:43 am
Post by: PVZFan on August 19, 2020, 11:35:16 am
Post by: gellchom on August 19, 2020, 12:52:32 pm
I know I can Google it, but I want to hear your opinion of it, too!
Post by: PVZFan on August 19, 2020, 01:03:38 pm
What’s Bored Panda?
I know I can Google it, but I want to hear your opinion of it, too!
It's a site that has articles where the information is curated from other sites or message boards, like Reddit or Twitter. Or they'll do an article about a blog and include some information from the comments on the blog in the article.
This article https://www.boredpanda.com/anyway-we-are-married-now-story/?cexp_id=31613&cexp_var=27&_f=featured&utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic is a perfect example.
Post by: Nikko-chan on August 20, 2020, 07:08:23 am
To those that asked after the "penguin dance" the link posted was not the one we did. At the end of the night we'd gather in an almost huddle, and do it. It was basically us hopping from foot to foot in an odd side to side manner with our legs held straight, arms down straight at sides, hands held out with the palms down. We looked quite like a flock of penguins and that's how we came up with the name :)
Something like this?
https://www.google.com/search?q=mary+poppins+penguins&oq=mary+poppins+pe&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0j46j0l2.144405j0j4&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
no but that looks quite interesting! the post from gramma dishes, the first bit where he had his hands at his side, is more what we did, thought our bodies were stiffer if that makes sense!