Bad Manners and Brimstone
General Etiquette => Weddings => Topic started by: IWish on September 23, 2020, 09:36:29 am
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I need your advice as to a wedding gift. The daughter of a couple we're friends with sent us a nicely printed wedding invitation. We are invited to log on to Zoom on the wedding day and watch the ceremony. After talking to the mother of the bride we found out that there will be other guests in attendance at the outdoor ceremony. So, we are "B" listers. I totally get having to or wanting to limit in person guests due to Covid. We wouldn't have gone anyway (still trying to avoid gatherings.)
I am wondering what you all would do regarding a gift: Send one? Send a lesser one since we were not invited to be there in person?
More details if it helps - it is a second marriage for the bride and they have been living together for two years. The registry information was printed on the back of the invitation. We're not super close to the parents anymore. I've met the bride twice. I don't want to be cheap and I do acknowledge the difficulty of planning celebrations during Covid. But I will admit it struck me as a bit off to have registry info posted on an obviously B list Zoom invite for a second wedding. Am I being petty in not wanting to spend what I normally would on a wedding gift? I will abide by your consensus.
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First off, don't worry about abiding by our consensus. Gather information and make your own decision.
It IS "off" to have the registry information on the invitation. That piece of etiquette has not changed. It's appropriate to have and publish a "wedding website" and put the registry information there or spread by word of mouth.
I would feel the same as you about being "B" listed. Especially if they are having some sort of reception that you are not invited to as well. I guess I would probably send a card. Possibly with a gift card at the low end of my giving practices.
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Are you being petty? Well, sortof, but from what you told us you are not close with the couple getting married. If you cannot joyfully give a gift, then don't! I am not saying that facetiously at all. If you actually want to give the couple a gift, do that, but if you don't, I wouldn't feel compelled to do so.
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Are you being petty? Well, sortof, but from what you told us you are not close with the couple getting married. If you cannot joyfully give a gift, then don't! I am not saying that facetiously at all. If you actually want to give the couple a gift, do that, but if you don't, I wouldn't feel compelled to do so.
I agree with this.
I think it's wrong to label this a B-list in the time of highly contagious disease that seems to love weddings as a vector for infecting lots and lots of people (all 7 of the people who died from that wedding in Maine didn't even attend, nor did they come in direct contact with someone who did; they got infected because someone who worked at their care facility lived in the same house as someone who did, picked it up, and brought it to work)
If there weren't a pandemic on, you might have been simply invited. I think it's a waste of time to be offended.
And so I would give a gift based on whether I would have given one had I been invited. I would feel a small obligation to give something, but it would be small, given that it's a second wedding and you're not close, and you might have declined anyway.
We were obviously B-listed to a wedding of a cousin, and my husband refused to be insulted. "They could have just not invited us at all. And wedding are expensive, and you can end up with a LOT of people on your list pretty quickly. It's perfectly sensible that we fell a little ways down the list, and it's nice that they thought of us at all."
I've decided he was right.
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I've also stopped judging people on including registry info. So many guests want that info right away, and it just seems to be not that horrible a thing anymore; it feels more like providing the RSVP address or something (which didn't used to be A Thing, nor was providing the RSVP stationery).
I don't think it's good form; I would tell people to not do it; but I think it's a bit of a lost cause, and there are SO many mixed messages out there that I don't hold it against people anymore.
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First off, don't worry about abiding by our consensus. Gather information and make your own decision.
I agree with this.
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I really can't tell (and maybe you can't either) if this is a case of...
A) Really close family being at the ceremony, but the majority of the guests are Zoomers. I wouldn't find this rude, but rather a necessity of the situation. (Although, I would have recommended to the couple that they not provide registry information at least for those not physically attending.)
or
B) A gift grab by inviting extra guests with little to no hospitality (read costs). Obviously, that is rude.
What if you received an invitation to attend physically pre-covid? What would you have done? Would you have been excited to attend? Would you have declined, but sent a lovely gift? Would you have declined and sent a token or no gift at all? My decision of how to handle the current invitation would be dependent on what I would have normally did.
If I was not particularly close to the couple and/or parents and had no interest in attending the wedding, I would probably decline. I might send a card with a small-ish gift if this is someone that I want in my life. But if it is someone who has faded and I am comfortable with that, then maybe no gift at all.
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snip:
I am wondering what you all would do regarding a gift: Send one? Send a lesser one since we were not invited to be there in person?
More details if it helps - it is a second marriage for the bride and they have been living together for two years. The registry information was printed on the back of the invitation. We're not super close to the parents anymore. I've met the bride twice. I don't want to be cheap and I do acknowledge the difficulty of planning celebrations during Covid. But I will admit it struck me as a bit off to have registry info posted on an obviously B list Zoom invite for a second wedding. Am I being petty in not wanting to spend what I normally would on a wedding gift? I will abide by your consensus.
I don't have a "one size fits all" budget for a wedding gift. What I spend is dependent on my relationship with the couple (not the parents) and maybe to do with second and third marriage.
I would not feel like this is "B" list invite because of Covid. So being invited as a remote participant wouldn't factor into it. The fact that you probably wouldn't have attended anyway would factor into how much I spent.
I might spend $300 on a wedding gift for a niece or nephew, but $200 for a cousin's son and maybe $50 to $100 on the child of a friend who I don't know well.
When a good friend remarried in her early 30's I spent my standard amount because her first marriage was more than a decade before and was one of those 1 year and done things. When my sister remarried in her 50's, I only spent about $100 on a gift as they really weren't expecting gifts and had not registered.
I agree that you do not need to abide by our opinions.
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Thanks for your feedback. I DO feel like I'm being petty by internally noting the "flaws" in the invite. (Well, externally pointing them out to you all. ;D) And I don't want to be! I have no way of knowing how large the in person gathering will be. We won't know that until the actual Zoom. If this was pre-covid and we were invited to an actual ceremony, we would feel obligated to go given our relationship with the parents. As for the registry info on the invitation - I know it's a lost cause and I can see that it makes sense in many cases. However, for a second wedding and for a wedding that we're not actually invited to, it still seems a bit off to include it. I think I'll send the same gift I would have if we were attending, which is to say, not quite as generous as if it was a first wedding of someone we were closer to.
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Part of what we do on this board is discuss the flaws of others! I think that we do it for educational reasons so that we can all learn to interact better with others. When I hear about things that couples do at their weddings that annoy, upset, or offend their guests, then I know what to avoid doing myself.
When people commit a faux pas, I think it is typically out of cluelessness. You know this couple better than any of us, but my guess is that they are not evil terrible people. They didn't include the registry to trick people into buying them all kinds of gifts. They probably just thought it was the nice thing to do. Or because they received invitations with them, they thought it was what they were supposed to do. Or they read a wedding website that told them to do it. I'm trying to teach myself to concentrate less on the tackiness of the situation and more on the intentions. If the person meant well, I can certainly figure out how to forgive their error.
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My gift giving would be based on my relationship with the bride and/or groom, and the reasons why they issued a "Zoom" invitation only. If I were close to the bride and felt that they would have invited me to attend, but truly couldn't because of covid, I would send a gift.
Since it is a second wedding, and you've only met the bride twice, it looks gift grabby to me, so I wouldn't send a gift. I think that the registry on the invitation is bad manners but that isn't as important to me as the fact that you really don't know this couple, and yet they are putting you in a position of maybe needing to get them a gift. I don't think you're being petty, I think you are being realistic. If you are close to someone you want to celebrate their event and a gift is part of that celebration. If you barely know someone, it is a gift grab. Just my opinion.
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Also, I've given fairly expensive gifts to people who flew off to Las Vegas to be married without family and friends present. One couple was a nephew and his live in girlfriend, the other was a friend who was getting married for the third time. In both cases the couples expected nothing in the line of gifts. There were no invitations of any kind and no wedding announcements. I gave them gifts because I was happy for them and wanted to.
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Are you being petty? Well, sortof, but from what you told us you are not close with the couple getting married. If you cannot joyfully give a gift, then don't! I am not saying that facetiously at all. If you actually want to give the couple a gift, do that, but if you don't, I wouldn't feel compelled to do so.
I agree with this.
I think it's wrong to label this a B-list in the time of highly contagious disease that seems to love weddings as a vector for infecting lots and lots of people (all 7 of the people who died from that wedding in Maine didn't even attend, nor did they come in direct contact with someone who did; they got infected because someone who worked at their care facility lived in the same house as someone who did, picked it up, and brought it to work)
If there weren't a pandemic on, you might have been simply invited. I think it's a waste of time to be offended.
And so I would give a gift based on whether I would have given one had I been invited. I would feel a small obligation to give something, but it would be small, given that it's a second wedding and you're not close, and you might have declined anyway.
We were obviously B-listed to a wedding of a cousin, and my husband refused to be insulted. "They could have just not invited us at all. And wedding are expensive, and you can end up with a LOT of people on your list pretty quickly. It's perfectly sensible that we fell a little ways down the list, and it's nice that they thought of us at all."
I've decided he was right.
I can't put it any better than this, especially the bolded.
You don't say that you think you would not have been invited in person absent the pandemic.
Do whatever you would have done if times were normal and you had received a regular invitation.
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My gift giving would be based on my relationship with the bride and/or groom, and the reasons why they issued a "Zoom" invitation only. If I were close to the bride and felt that they would have invited me to attend, but truly couldn't because of covid, I would send a gift.
Since it is a second wedding, and you've only met the bride twice, it looks gift grabby to me, so I wouldn't send a gift. I think that the registry on the invitation is bad manners but that isn't as important to me as the fact that you really don't know this couple, and yet they are putting you in a position of maybe needing to get them a gift. I don't think you're being petty, I think you are being realistic. If you are close to someone you want to celebrate their event and a gift is part of that celebration. If you barely know someone, it is a gift grab. Just my opinion.
I agree if this was a personalized wedding invitation. But we all know that invites are mass printed so the groom's dad's golfing buddy gets the exact same invite as Aunt Gertrude and Uncle Donald.
I don't "like" registar info on the invitation. I'd much rather a note about a website and then I can go look for the info there if I want it. But I also like the old fashioned approach of reaching out to the couple's parents or closer friend to obtain the info.
But I'm not going to say it is gift grabby because the same invite went out to everyone.
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Are you being petty? Well, sortof, but from what you told us you are not close with the couple getting married. If you cannot joyfully give a gift, then don't! I am not saying that facetiously at all. If you actually want to give the couple a gift, do that, but if you don't, I wouldn't feel compelled to do so.
I agree with this.
I think it's wrong to label this a B-list in the time of highly contagious disease that seems to love weddings as a vector for infecting lots and lots of people (all 7 of the people who died from that wedding in Maine didn't even attend, nor did they come in direct contact with someone who did; they got infected because someone who worked at their care facility lived in the same house as someone who did, picked it up, and brought it to work)
If there weren't a pandemic on, you might have been simply invited. I think it's a waste of time to be offended.
And so I would give a gift based on whether I would have given one had I been invited. I would feel a small obligation to give something, but it would be small, given that it's a second wedding and you're not close, and you might have declined anyway.
We were obviously B-listed to a wedding of a cousin, and my husband refused to be insulted. "They could have just not invited us at all. And wedding are expensive, and you can end up with a LOT of people on your list pretty quickly. It's perfectly sensible that we fell a little ways down the list, and it's nice that they thought of us at all."
I've decided he was right.
I can't put it any better than this, especially the bolded.
You don't say that you think you would not have been invited in person absent the pandemic.
Do whatever you would have done if times were normal and you had received a regular invitation.
This. It's not a B list if they are legit trying to make sure all their loved ones get to see them marry. There are likely in - person restrictions that keep them from having all the people they would have wanted. One of my friends was told she had to cut her wedding down from 300 (huge families on both sides) to 150...and then 2 weeks before her wedding was told only 50 were allowed. She and her now husband had to call 100 people in their family and close loved ones and tell them they couldn't come in person. And it sucked. I can't imagine the level of stress she and her husband had. You cannot assume you were B - listed because of something like this.
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We are living "safety trumps etiquette" every. single. day. This couple is doing the best they can in the middle of a global pandemic. This isn't a B-list invite, it's a "We're trying to navigate an insane situation and still get married and share the day with the people we love" invitation.
I'd set the gift budget on what I'd give if I were attending and might add a touch because... global pandemic. (Also, I'm not out anything to attend this wedding. Not driving to it or staying overnight. Not even buying the $12 shiny hose I like because... Zoom.)
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One of my friends was told she had to cut her wedding down from 300 (huge families on both sides) to 150...and then 2 weeks before her wedding was told only 50 were allowed. She and her now husband had to call 100 people in their family and close loved ones and tell them they couldn't come in person. And it sucked. I can't imagine the level of stress she and her husband had.
Be grateful she's not in England from today you can only have 15 (down from 30) - though the person conducting the ceremony doesn't count in the 15 (I think the Bridge and Groom do) (I want to say it's 20 in Scotland and 30 in Wales still)
Baptisms and christenings are even smaller - 6 people (not including the vicar - but does include the baby)
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I agree with others to send them a gift that you would if you were attending. I don't think that Zooming weddings, etc. were a thing before this pandemic and at this time and age it is not B-listing.
Consider my MIL who passed away earlier this year. She was very explicit on what she wanted for her passing ceremonies which included a full Mass where nobody was turned away at the door (MIL was very active in her church and loved by all). MIL also asked for a reception (I think that's what you would call it) at a specific place and even wanted a certain menu to be served.
MIL's two sons and one daughter very much wanted to comply with her last wishes. They set a date for the Mass/reception for mid-September thinking that all this would be over with. Not. They had to cancel the plans simply because they didn't know who to invite and did not want to B-list anybody.
Meanwhile MIL's sons and daughter held a very private ceremony (just the three of them) and put MIL's ashes urn into the crypt along side of her husbands.
Who knows when MIL's Mass/reception will take place.
Anyway, sorry for the slight derailment, but I don't think you were B-listed and you should gift what you think is appropriate for the relationship that you have with HC.
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I agree. Not necessarily a B-list; gift as you would normally, but a thought...
We all know that couples have to sometimes make tough decisions when it comes to wedding numbers. They may have to keep to a specific cutoff number for various reasons and it can sometimes be tricky to decide who to keep and who to cut. This Zoom allows them to not have to cut anyone! So it's possible that a few people who may have been cut from an in-person wedding are invited to the virtual one.
The last two weddings that I attending (pre-covid) both had me scratching my head. I was delighted to be invited, but I never imagined that I would make the cut! I wonder if those weddings would have been this summer and I was invited to Zoom if I would have felt a bit like the OP. Either way, I may still have attended virtually and would have likely sent a gift for both.
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I was thinking something similar to DaDancingPsych.
I mean, I don't think that the OP's situation is a B list or otherwise improper. I'm assuming that the guest list (the small in-person number plus the Zoom number) is the same or pretty close, with perhaps a few additions, as DaDancingPsych says.
I think it's understandable to invite more people to a Zoom event if your budget would not have allowed you to invite all the people you truly want to be there. I don't know how you'd even judge which guests were the "extras" if you were planning it as a Zoom event from the start. So far, we are mostly seeing weddings that had been planned as in-person events that had to be rescheduled as Zoom weddings. But now we will be seeing more that are planned as a Zoom from the get go.
But I suppose a Zoom wedding would allow a more mercenary couple who might have invited, say, 150 to a regular wedding to invite, like, a THOUSAND people to a Zoom wedding. That wouldn't be a B list situation -- but it would be a gift grab, big time.
And the guests wouldn't even know it until they show up for the Zoom wedding and see all those people there (attendance seems usually to be quite high for a Zoom event).
Now, I haven't heard of this happening. But I fear it's only a matter of time. ...
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I think attendance for Zoom weddings will fall off REALLY quickly post-pandemic. Attending might be cheap, but it's also not appealing.
And I think guests still know how close they are to the couple, and they'll make very similar decisions about whether to give a gift. I think for most people, they kind of know whether they want to be generous or whether they want to kind of brush it off.
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LOL! Well, that wasn't a very long wait ....
We got an invitation, I think by private Facebook group, not a "come one come all" Facebook post -- can't find it right now -- to a Zoom wedding. The family are active congregants of the congregation where my husband is clergy, but we have never socialized with them. I'm sure that we would have been invited if my husband were performing the wedding; it's pretty rude not to, especially because they do know us.
But he's not officiating at this wedding. So I doubt that we would have been invited had it been an in-person wedding rather than Zoom.
Still, I can't say it was for a gift grab. I think maybe they just realized that there really was no limit on how many people they could invite to a Zoom wedding, so why not be inclusive? -- that kind of thing. They are nice people. I don't want to assume the worst.
But I can see that this really creates an issue for hosts/HCs. What really is the right criterion for a Zoom wedding? It's easy to say it's the same as for any other wedding, but I don't think so, even just for questions like inviting kids, too, and such. It's just not exactly the same thing. And most people don't want to look gift-grabby, but it may not occur to them that they might be making that impression. Similarly, for guests, it's a different matter on whether to accept or not when so little effort and cost is required.
It's true that Zoom weddings are not as fun as in-person. But it is nice to be able to attend when you might not otherwise have been able to. It's not just cheap, it's so easy and fast. Our grandson's bris had people from all over the world. So there is an up side, too, and I bet we will be seeing more live events combined with livestreaming, if not Zoom.
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Oh, I wasn't knocking Zoom events. Just that the enticements and pressures will be different. I think that people who don't care as much will be more likely to not tune in even if they might have attended in person.
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But I can see that this really creates an issue for hosts/HCs. What really is the right criterion for a Zoom wedding? It's easy to say it's the same as for any other wedding, but I don't think so, even just for questions like inviting kids, too, and such. It's just not exactly the same thing. And most people don't want to look gift-grabby, but it may not occur to them that they might be making that impression. Similarly, for guests, it's a different matter on whether to accept or not when so little effort and cost is required.
I agree. When you're drawing up an invitation list for an actual physical wedding invite, your list is limited by your budget, the size of the venue, the distance potential guests will have to travel, etc. And people know that; your second cousins twice removed who live on the other side of the ocean are never going to pay the airfare to come, so you naturally don't invite them and they don't feel in the least snubbed because they never expected you to. With a Zoom wedding, lacking those constraints, they could 'attend', so do you invite them? Will it seem like a gift grab (because they know and you know that you wouldn't have dreamed of inviting them to a physical event) if you do? Will it seem like a snub if you don't? If you do invite them, will they feel obligated to take a day's leave and sit at a computer screen all day (or all night, given time zones) for fear of snubbing you? All very tricky.
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Oh, I wasn't knocking Zoom events. Just that the enticements and pressures will be different. I think that people who don't care as much will be more likely to not tune in even if they might have attended in person.
I think I’d guess the opposite, especially for out of town events.
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I'd have to love the person a lot to want to sit and watch the wedding on Zoom.
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Has anyone attended a Zoom wedding? I can picture two versions.
The one I see on the news and in a movie recently released (I won't spoil, so we'll leave it at that) where all participants can be seen on the screen and can interact with each other. A true Zoom conference call. This would be more fun as you could act as more of a wedding guests. However, it really only works if less than ten people are invited. Any more guests and everyone is talking over each other! This might be a little fun as I could at least wish the happy couple well and say hello to a few other guests.
Or more of a live stream where you can see and hear everything, but don't really interact with anyone. To me, this is like watching the wedding video after the fact and could become long and boring. For most couples, I would probably prefer to just watch the highlights.
I am simply trying to figure out how these work! :)
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So today I ran into (at an outside, socially distanced event!) that man who invited us to be Zoom attendees at his daughter's wedding later this month. He asked in a sort of roundabout way if we would be attending; I don't especially want to, but I couldn't really think of an excuse, so I said we would -- NBD.
I learned a few things about the wedding pertinent to this discussion.
- they hope to be able to have up to 30-40 people in live attendance
- they invited 200 by Zoom (not sure whether or not that includes the live attendees).
- I asked if it hadn't been during the pandemic and they could have had a regular wedding, how many people they would have had. He said they hadn't really thought about it, because the couple only got engaged fairly recently, so it had never been an option, but maybe around 100.
So this is sort of an example of what I'm wondering about. I don't think they invited the let's-say-100 additional guests in order to maximize their take. I mean, if that were the case, why not 500? 800? They are nice people (although I just found out today that the groom's parents are people I knew long ago, and they are real nutters!) I think that they just figured that the Zoom event made it possible for them to invite more people that they really do like than if they had had to host a live event. But it's still double. And others may indeed invite 500 or more to a Zoom or live stream wedding, because why not? The more the merrier, and you aren't putting people on the spot to have to travel or even dress up, hire a sitter, park, etc., or even spend more than just an hour or so, not devote half a day or more. All of that is actually quite reasonable.
So what does it all mean? If this kind of thing snowballs -- and there is really no reason to think it will not continue after the pandemic ends someday, either -- guests will be invited to weddings several times a year. It's pretty hard to turn down an invitation that is so easy to accept without being insulting.
But even if no one is doing it to be gift grabby, that could mean an awfully big wedding gift budget, especially for people you don't care all that much about. My husband thinks that accepting an invitation to a Zoom event doesn't carry the same expectation of or need to give a gift as usual. But I'm not so sure. It comes down to the fact that the gift is for the marriage, not the wedding. At the same time, if people invite people who would not ordinarily make the cut -- I don't mean a few more, I mean, "What the heck! Let's invite everyone we think might like it" -- it doesn't feel like it's the same as usual.
What do you think? Take this wedding for example. Does it make a difference that there will be 30-40 live attendees, although that's not their choice, just the rules? Does it matter that it is 200, not 500? Does it matter that I doubt we would have been invited had they had 100 people at a live event? That the invitation was via Facebook? Does any of it matter in terms of whether the hosts are doing anything rude or pushy or grabby or whatever? Does any of it affect what you would do about a gift?
I am really interested in everyone's opinions.
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Has anyone attended a Zoom wedding? I can picture two versions.
The one I see on the news and in a movie recently released (I won't spoil, so we'll leave it at that) where all participants can be seen on the screen and can interact with each other. A true Zoom conference call. This would be more fun as you could act as more of a wedding guests. However, it really only works if less than ten people are invited. Any more guests and everyone is talking over each other! This might be a little fun as I could at least wish the happy couple well and say hello to a few other guests.
This could work with more people if you had a moderator, and people participated in shifts, sort of.
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What do you think? Take this wedding for example. Does it make a difference that there will be 30-40 live attendees, although that's not their choice, just the rules? Does it matter that it is 200, not 500? Does it matter that I doubt we would have been invited had they had 100 people at a live event? That the invitation was via Facebook? Does any of it matter in terms of whether the hosts are doing anything rude or pushy or grabby or whatever? Does any of it affect what you would do about a gift?
I am really interested in everyone's opinions.
Yes. It would matter to me. If I felt reasonably sure I would not have been invited to a conventional wedding had it been possible and if I had received my invitation by email, I would not feel that the bride and groom really wanted the 'honor of my presence' at their wedding and I would not "attend" or send a gift.
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I wish I didn't feel this way but I think I would still feel B listed.
I understand it - guest lists are severely limited and a lot more people that wouldn't normally be cut are going to be cut. I wouldn't really be offended but I don't think I would be able to convince myself that I wasn't on the B list though.
It's just a feeling.
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As far as "attending" a zoom wedding, and sending a gift, I still feel that my reaction would depend on how close I am to the couple. That's what would really matter to me. As far as, if it had been a normal reception, they would have invited 100 people, but since it is zoom, they increased the guest list to 200, that makes me suspect that maybe the extra 100 guests were people that they weren't all that close to. Or not. Anyway, each invitee has to look at their relationship with the couple and decide whether to expend the time on a normal wedding or a zoom wedding, and whether to send a gift. If someone is a good friend of mine, but I've only met her daughter, the bride, once or twice, I probably wouldn't attend.
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I have to ask myself, though, how it’s different from a situation in which a couple originally contemplated a wedding at a tiny venue that only seats thirty or a destination wedding, in neither of which cases I would have been invited, but then decided to have a big wedding for 200 instead, and now I am.
My relationship to the HC themselves is not a determining factor for me. At my age, 63, except for relatives, and even then sometimes, I’m much more likely to know the parents well than the bride and groom. I rarely know both of them.
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I learned a few things about the wedding pertinent to this discussion.
- they hope to be able to have up to 30-40 people in live attendance
- they invited 200 by Zoom (not sure whether or not that includes the live attendees).
- I asked if it hadn't been during the pandemic and they could have had a regular wedding, how many people they would have had. He said they hadn't really thought about it, because the couple only got engaged fairly recently, so it had never been an option, but maybe around 100.
Gellchom -- thank you for posting this bit of actual conversation. I think it just might change my mind about B-listing and possible gift grabby.
I was thinking that Zoom-inviting people would only include the people that you would otherwise invite but due to the pandemic, social distancing and what not, are unable to attend the physical event because of the restrictions.
Changing the live invites from 100 (budgeted) to 200 Zoom invites (free) does bother me.
I'm not sure if it's akin to passing out/showing off wedding photos after the event or not. Or even if it's a new form of wedding announcement.
Looking forward to what others have to say.
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I learned a few things about the wedding pertinent to this discussion.
- they hope to be able to have up to 30-40 people in live attendance
- they invited 200 by Zoom (not sure whether or not that includes the live attendees).
- I asked if it hadn't been during the pandemic and they could have had a regular wedding, how many people they would have had. He said they hadn't really thought about it, because the couple only got engaged fairly recently, so it had never been an option, but maybe around 100.
Gellchom -- thank you for posting this bit of actual conversation. I think it just might change my mind about B-listing and possible gift grabby.
I was thinking that Zoom-inviting people would only include the people that you would otherwise invite but due to the pandemic, social distancing and what not, are unable to attend the physical event because of the restrictions.
Changing the live invites from 100 (budgeted) to 200 Zoom invites (free) does bother me.
I'm not sure if it's akin to passing out/showing off wedding photos after the event or not. Or even if it's a new form of wedding announcement.
Looking forward to what others have to say.
I agree, if the Zoom invite extends beyond what the original guest list would have been, then it feels gift grabby, at worst, or that the couple has over estimated people's interest in their nuptials. I'd consider my relationship to the couple, or the family if I knew only the parents, when deciding whether or not to gift - or even to show up.
I have weeks where I'm on Zoom for 12-15 hours. I have a couple coming up that will approach 24. I'd have to have a fairly close relationship in the couple to Zoom on those weeks.
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There are just some threads that get me thinking; I guess this is one of them.
I have been thinking about which weddings I would want to attend virtually. That lists seems to be much smaller than the in-person list.
My brother's wedding (where I would probably be invited guest number 5), absolutely! In fact, I would anticipate an in-person invite, as he's in my bubble.
My very good friend (where I would probably be invited guest number 50), sure. We talk every few days and I have gotten to play witness to the relationship. (I helped plan the first date and engagement.)
My hobby friend (where I would probably be invited guest number 100), maybe? I did attend the in-person wedding as I see the couple a few times a month, but I'm not sure it would be very enjoyable to sit and watch virtually. Maybe I would pass and just hear about it the next time I see friend.
Distant friend of 15 years ago (where I would probably be invited guest number 201... and likely would not have made the cut for an in-person wedding), no thank you. I am only in touch with this friend a few times a year and this seems like a boring way to spend an afternoon. I'm not sure I would have enjoyed the in-person version either. I'll just send my well wishes in another way.
In short, while I think Zoom weddings allows you to easily expand the guest list, I think the number of interested guests actually shortens. I realize that people planning weddings at this point are just trying to deal with the circumstances, but I think I might consider cutting the list more out of consideration for the enjoyment of my guests.
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DaDancingPsych -- Thank you for posting that. It is a very nice break down of whether I would attend a Zoom wedding or not.
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DaDancePsych, I love your estimate of "I'd probably be the 5th / 10th / 200th person invited..."
I think in most situations, we KNOW where we would probably fall.
I think that's why my DH wasn't insulted to be B-listed that one time. We knew they'd have other people who would naturally fall before us, and they wouldn't have HAD to invite us at all. But they did, and it wasn't an insult to know that there were 80 other people who came before us, because of course they did.
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DaDancePsych, I love your estimate of "I'd probably be the 5th / 10th / 200th person invited..."
I think in most situations, we KNOW where we would probably fall.
I think that's why my DH wasn't insulted to be B-listed that one time. We knew they'd have other people who would naturally fall before us, and they wouldn't have HAD to invite us at all. But they did, and it wasn't an insult to know that there were 80 other people who came before us, because of course they did.
That is a very good point. What is so terrible, really, about not being on the very short list of people who would be invited to a smaller event? We can't be everyone's very best friend. I wouldn't WANT to be in inner circle of everyone I like!
I don't think this is really "B listing," anyway. I think that that term means hosts treating some guests better than others -- like, some guests get a full meal, others are only invited for dessert.
This is more like the "second flight" situation -- where the hosts realize that for some reason (change in venue, infusion of cash, learning that a larger number of invitees than anticipated will be unable to attend, etc.) they will be able to invite more people, so they do. That doesn't mean that they are inviting people they don't care about just to increase their gifts! Not at all. Everyone has some "maybes" on their invitation list that they end up not being able to include. Often, these people are not borderline acquaintances at all -- they may be more like "would love love love to invite but don't have space because of the people on the 'must invite' list."
But it all gets blurred in the Zoom situation. I mean, that father of the bride in the 200 person Zoom wedding told me he figured maybe they would've had 100 at an in-person wedding -- but I don't think he even thought about it until I asked; they hadn't planned and then cancelled an in-person wedding for 100.
So it's more like a couple deciding to have a wedding for 200 in the park with pizza; if they could only have had 50 for a more expensive/smaller venue, does that mean that the other 150 are "B list" or otherwise insulted? Maybe it's a compliment -- "We could've had a fancier reception, but it was more important to us to have more of our family and friends."
Extrapolating to Zoom, I guess you could even say that a Zoom wedding for 30 is nicer than a Zoom wedding for 200 -- you can't see everyone at the same time, etc.; we all know the down sides of very large Zoom events. But they chose a Zoom for 200 anyway so they could include more people. Are 170 "B" guests?
I do think that I would feel different if it were 1000.
I think there is a whole new area of etiquette to be written.
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I learned a few things about the wedding pertinent to this discussion.
- they hope to be able to have up to 30-40 people in live attendance
- they invited 200 by Zoom (not sure whether or not that includes the live attendees).
- I asked if it hadn't been during the pandemic and they could have had a regular wedding, how many people they would have had. He said they hadn't really thought about it, because the couple only got engaged fairly recently, so it had never been an option, but maybe around 100.
Gellchom -- thank you for posting this bit of actual conversation. I think it just might change my mind about B-listing and possible gift grabby.
I was thinking that Zoom-inviting people would only include the people that you would otherwise invite but due to the pandemic, social distancing and what not, are unable to attend the physical event because of the restrictions.
Changing the live invites from 100 (budgeted) to 200 Zoom invites (free) does bother me.
I'm not sure if it's akin to passing out/showing off wedding photos after the event or not. Or even if it's a new form of wedding announcement.
Looking forward to what others have to say.
I agree, if the Zoom invite extends beyond what the original guest list would have been, then it feels gift grabby, at worst, or that the couple has over estimated people's interest in their nuptials. I'd consider my relationship to the couple, or the family if I knew only the parents, when deciding whether or not to gift - or even to show up.
I have weeks where I'm on Zoom for 12-15 hours. I have a couple coming up that will approach 24. I'd have to have a fairly close relationship in the couple to Zoom on those weeks.
This is where I fall too. If I were getting married and having a Zoom wedding, I wouldn't invite any extra guests over and above the number I would have invited, had they been attending in person. Or - at the very least - if I did invite any "extras", I'd say 'no gifts please'.
The question of whether to send a gift if you're a Zoom guest is an interesting conundrum! I think it could be tricky if you aren't sure if you would have been invited if it was a non-Zoom wedding. (For example, if the Bride or Groom was a friendly colleague from work, or something). I wouldn't want to upset the HC by not sending anything! I'd probably give them a small gift unless I was reasonably confident that I would never have been invited to a non-Zoom wedding.
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This is where I fall too. If I were getting married and having a Zoom wedding, I wouldn't invite any extra guests over and above the number I would have invited, had they been attending in person.
That makes sense, but the problem is that now we are getting out of the period where Zoom or live streamed weddings are rescheduled in-person events that were already planned or in the process of planning. In those cases, the hosts know how many they had originally invited or were planning to invite.
But now, where weddings are being planned remotely from the get-go, no one --including the hosts -- knows what that number would have been. They never had planned for an in-person wedding, so how can anyone say that the number that would have been invited was an intimate 30, a festive 300, or anything in between? The bride, the groom, and their families might all have had different pictures in their heads, or might not have even thought about it at all. It would be difficult to try to imagine it -- especially without pricing venues and services and the like to see what your parameters would have been, which would be a real waste of everyone's time.
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Small update: The wedding was this weekend. It appeared to be only immediate family in live attendance. There were probably around 10 Zoom logins. I'm not sure how many Zoom invites were sent. It was a sweet wedding with heartfelt vows and cute decorations. I'm sure they missed having a large church wedding but they did their best given the circumstances.
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Thanks for the update, IWish . . . do you still think that you were b-listed?
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jpcher, I no longer feel that way given that it was only immediate family in attendance and the small number of Zoom attendees.
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I say to do what you would do if you were invited in person.
To me, one reason we do wedding gifts/showers is to help a new couple get set up in life.
This person is set up in life if it is a second wedding.
Also, how close do you feel to this person?
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It’s not the B list — it’s the Z list!
I wonder if that’s a thing already.
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I’m reviving this discussion because enough time has passed for more of us to see this situation come up in our communities and share what we’ve learned. Even with vaccines and tests, hosts and HCs still don’t know in advance what the rules will be from week to week, let alone far enough in the future to plan weddings.
It occurs to me that this might be part of the reason that my young cousins have been planning these expensive and inconvenient glamping type wedding plans. I had assumed it was just a trend to Make Our Wedding Special!!!!!! Not unlike some destination weddings. But now I think maybe it’s because it’s prudent to plan an all-outdoor event because of the pandemic. No one wants their wedding plans derailed, much less to have their wedding become a spreader event.
How have your thoughts evolved, if at all?
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How have your thoughts evolved, if at all?
Not really. I have attended two weddings since then. One was virtual (a live stream where there was no way to really let the couple know you were there.) I found it boring and caught myself nodding off. I was surprised to receive the invitation (not close to the couple), which was super informal through email. Had I been invited in-person, I might have attended... or maybe not. I normally would have sent a gift, but the couple specifically requested no gifts. Plus, when I saw the couple a few months prior, they mentioned that they wanted to have an in-person party / reception sometime down the road. Again, I don't know if I will also attend that, but I figure that might be the more appropriate time to send a gift.
I will say that it was super nice not to have to dress for the event. I only spent 30 minutes of my day viewing the ceremony (and as mentioned, it didn't matter how tired I was.) It was the perfect investment of my time according to my relationship with them. I am calling this Zoom invitation a win for that!
The other was an in-person wedding. I had planned to attend pre-covid, but it got postponed a year. I wasn't thrilled by the lack of covid precautions, but I was vaccinated and was as careful as I could be. I also sent my RSVP at a moment when I thought things would improve... it was a tough decision to not bail. The size did seem on the small side, but I don't know if they paired down or if many people opted not to attend. In the end, I'm glad that I could attend. I would not have enjoyed this one as much through Zoom.
I wanted to add that I have also attended a few other virtual events within the past year. Not weddings, but other types of gatherings. My favorite ones were those where there was some sort of participant interaction like a chat box. Also, it feels super disjointed when the live participants do not acknowledge the virtual ones. I would recommend that any couple streaming their ceremony also plan a camera moment. It doesn't have to be long, but just say something like "Just wanted a close-up to thank everyone for logging in. We're sad that you are not here, but [insert any personal feelings or comments]." Short sweet, but feels more personal.