Author Topic: Okay Karen  (Read 5221 times)

chigger

Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2020, 03:21:33 pm »

So, another confirmation that this "Karen" crap has lost its original meaning and is already being used by "the other side" to put a woman, especially an older white woman, in her place no matter what its original meaning was supposed to be.

I'm sorry you had that experience. I know in my group of friends, we only use the phrase very light heartedly, and it is actually more often used toward the men in the group. Another example was a group of us, two men and two women, went to Subway to get food because we knew we were going to be busy outdoors for a long time. We each ordered a footlong, half to eat when we ordered it and half to save for later. One of the men said something like, "Oh, and can I get the footlong cut into two six inches and wrapped separately please?" to which the other man (this was my husband) said, "Wow, Karen," to our friend. Then my husband said to the sandwich artist, "But actually, that's a good idea. Is that something you can do?"

I guess my point is that some people use the term to be rude and derogatory, but others are just lightheartedly commenting to be funny. In my experience it isn't even directed only to women.

But ya'll are still doing it, light hearted or not. Your husband could have just called your friend a snowflake. Let's say your name is actually Jem. How would you feel if every headline, with video showing a woman that fits your demographic, was titled "Jem threatens black man in central park" or "Jem called the cops on black child selling lemonade" or "Jem calls police on black family at pool, says they can't possibly live there". That is only three examples, but I could go on for many, many more.  Then it becomes any person in your demographic is "A Jem". Then any person in your demographic that tries to enforce rules is a "Jem". Tell me how you would feel?

I personally would not likely care, but that's just me. I know I am not a "Jem" (if this is meant to imply something derogatory) and people who know me also know that. So if someone thought negatively about me based on a headline calling someone else a "Jem" I would really question whether I valued their opinion!

Like I said, I am sorry that some people are having negative experiences. I think there are all sorts of things some people say lightheartedly and others say to be mean or derogatory. Examples include "Becky," "Blondie," "Brutus," etc. I can generally tell when a person is being lighthearted and when they are intending to be rude.

Then you probably don't have a name that dates you!  I can tell you for a fact that MOST people named Karen are heartily sick of the memes and the headlines!  Imagine calling customer service for anything, and you give your name and you hear them stifle a laugh. Happens every damn time, now.  I still believe, if you are going to LABEL someone, you should use your vocabulary and not use MY name. You really don't understand how insulting it's become. I hope you never do.
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jpcher

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Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2020, 03:41:22 pm »
Wow. Lots of words going on here . . . and I'm on the side that the given name "Karen" is derogatory to all those Karen's out there in the world (my middle name is Karen) simply because it points to a certain persona (white, female, blunt haircut, etc.)

When I first started seeing the "Karen" memes I thought that they were funny, especially embracing the term we use here as a "Special Snowflake."

To me Karen = Special Snowflake. We've talked about the people who demanded extra or special services from managers, cashiers, waitstaff, whatever because they thought they were entitled and would.not.take.NO.for an answer. That's what I'm thinking a Karen is.

Granted giving a special snowflake a particular name and look didn't even cross my mind until I read this thread.

I never thought about Karen being racist (okay the memes show that she's white with a certain hair style . . . maybe stereotyped instead of racist?) because there are all sorts of people out there in this world that have the same attitude. "I'm Special. You MUST listen to me!"



To all the real Karens out there on this board I'm sorry your name was picked for this meme. It could have been Shelly or Lisa or Kathy.


Rose Red

Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2020, 05:52:09 pm »
I also wish it isn't a real name. However, I never heard of "Karen" used as a racist until the horrific events of this summer. I use to only hear it applied to entitled women of all ages and race. Now It seems they took it and twisted it to mean only middle age white women.

Karen was a favorite name of mine. Whenever we were assigned to write a story in school, my main character was usually called Karen.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 05:53:59 pm by Rose Red »
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holly firestorm

Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2020, 09:38:47 pm »

So, another confirmation that this "Karen" crap has lost its original meaning and is already being used by "the other side" to put a woman, especially an older white woman, in her place no matter what its original meaning was supposed to be.

I'm sorry you had that experience. I know in my group of friends, we only use the phrase very light heartedly, and it is actually more often used toward the men in the group. Another example was a group of us, two men and two women, went to Subway to get food because we knew we were going to be busy outdoors for a long time. We each ordered a footlong, half to eat when we ordered it and half to save for later. One of the men said something like, "Oh, and can I get the footlong cut into two six inches and wrapped separately please?" to which the other man (this was my husband) said, "Wow, Karen," to our friend. Then my husband said to the sandwich artist, "But actually, that's a good idea. Is that something you can do?"

I guess my point is that some people use the term to be rude and derogatory, but others are just lightheartedly commenting to be funny. In my experience it isn't even directed only to women.

But ya'll are still doing it, light hearted or not. Your husband could have just called your friend a snowflake. Let's say your name is actually Jem. How would you feel if every headline, with video showing a woman that fits your demographic, was titled "Jem threatens black man in central park" or "Jem called the cops on black child selling lemonade" or "Jem calls police on black family at pool, says they can't possibly live there". That is only three examples, but I could go on for many, many more.

I'm sorry you're having that experience too.

I didn't think of the racist connotation until I looked at the dictionary.com listing. The term has evolved to include that, but, when I come across it, either IRL or online, I find it to be more of the "I need to see your manager" or "I want super-special treatment" variety.

I do find it's used to try to stifle women's voices. A reasonable request or seeking to rectify something puts one at risk of being dismissed as a Karen. I've found myself, when making a completely typical, normal customer service request saying, "Not to be a Karen, but...." In hindsight, I really didn't like that I did it. Why soften the request or permission seek when the person who'd been addressing this situation with me had the facts completely wrong?

There was an AITA on Reddit where the sales force was referring to all women as Karen. Little girls were "Baby Karens" etc. etc. They were calling one of the only women in the office Karen. She started calling all of them Kevin. (Although, based on their behavior, I would have gone with Chad. I think that's consistent with how your daughter is using it, Jayhawk.)

"Kevin" stuck with the whole office. The sales team was upset. The poster said she wasn't dropping Kevin until they'd dropped Karen and went one week without calling her Karen.

"I'm sorry you had that experience." "I'm sorry you're having that experience too." Not only are you being dismissive, probably unintentionally...but, you'd have to do an awful lot of apologizing if you're going to cover all the women who have had experiences like that.  I'm actually GLAD I had that experience because I've been predicting it since June.  When it happened it was proof that what I'd been saying had been right all along. As you do say yourself, "I do find it's used to try to stifle women's voices. A reasonable request or seeking to rectify something puts one at risk of being dismissed as a Karen. "

Instead of saying "not to be a Karen" try saying something like, "I hope this request isn't out of line," or "I don't want to be too high maintenance." or "I have a request, but, if it's a pain in the neck for you, don't worry, we can skip it."
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holly firestorm

Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2020, 09:46:58 pm »
Wow. Lots of words going on here . . . and I'm on the side that the given name "Karen" is derogatory to all those Karen's out there in the world (my middle name is Karen) simply because it points to a certain persona (white, female, blunt haircut, etc.)

When I first started seeing the "Karen" memes I thought that they were funny, especially embracing the term we use here as a "Special Snowflake."

To me Karen = Special Snowflake. We've talked about the people who demanded extra or special services from managers, cashiers, waitstaff, whatever because they thought they were entitled and would.not.take.NO.for an answer. That's what I'm thinking a Karen is.

Granted giving a special snowflake a particular name and look didn't even cross my mind until I read this thread.

I never thought about Karen being racist (okay the memes show that she's white with a certain hair style . . . maybe stereotyped instead of racist?) because there are all sorts of people out there in this world that have the same attitude. "I'm Special. You MUST listen to me!"



To all the real Karens out there on this board I'm sorry your name was picked for this meme. It could have been Shelly or Lisa or Kathy.

That's what I was told it meant originally.  And I have met PLENTY of Black and Asian women (just for example) who do the same thing and have the same attitude. But, yes, it's racist, sexist and ageist, too. Cute young women are rarely accused of being "Karens" And it wouldn't be any better if another name like Shelley, Lisa or Kathy was used.  I'm sick of people STILL trying to disempower middle aged and older women.

This is also a way to  weaken the "Me Too" movement by dismissing women's comments and dividing the young girls who embrace this "Karen" thing as supposedly anti-racist from older women.

LifeOnPluto

Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2020, 12:12:35 am »
I just want to say that all the Karens I know in real life are lovely people who don't fit this trope at all. I am truly sorry for all the people called Karen whose name has been turned into what is really starting to amount to an ugly slur.

I agree that there doesn't seem to be a male equivalent. I've heard "Chad" used to describe a "frat guy" or a "jock", but that's not really the same as a "Karen".
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Hmmm

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Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2020, 10:49:45 am »

So, another confirmation that this "Karen" crap has lost its original meaning and is already being used by "the other side" to put a woman, especially an older white woman, in her place no matter what its original meaning was supposed to be.

I'm sorry you had that experience. I know in my group of friends, we only use the phrase very light heartedly, and it is actually more often used toward the men in the group. Another example was a group of us, two men and two women, went to Subway to get food because we knew we were going to be busy outdoors for a long time. We each ordered a footlong, half to eat when we ordered it and half to save for later. One of the men said something like, "Oh, and can I get the footlong cut into two six inches and wrapped separately please?" to which the other man (this was my husband) said, "Wow, Karen," to our friend. Then my husband said to the sandwich artist, "But actually, that's a good idea. Is that something you can do?"

I guess my point is that some people use the term to be rude and derogatory, but others are just lightheartedly commenting to be funny. In my experience it isn't even directed only to women.

But it still supports the stereotype. Telling a man he is acting like a woman has always been a put down because women are perceived as inferior. When have you heard "He's really good. He can hit the ball like a woman."

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BlueWave

Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2020, 03:16:07 pm »
I posted this on my Facebook page in June: When I was young there used to be this t-shirt, "B**ch: a kind, gentle-hearted woman who's been bullied, picked on, abused and dismissed once too often." It came about because of all the misogynists who called women "b**ches" any time they 'stepped out of line' or didn't know their place. Now there's a new slang word "Karen" which is SUPPOSED to refer to anyone who thinks they're so special they matter and no one else does.  But, since I first saw it being used, I've NEVER seen if refer to a male*, anyone who isn't white, in fact, not even someone who's young.   If a male acts like a racist, he's just called a racist.  If a woman acts like a racist, she's a "racist Karen." It seems to me what that insult really means is "middle aged or older white WOMAN who doesn't know her place." Especially for all those who hate being called "snowflake" or "libertard." but call any woman you don't want to screw and who disagrees with you a "Karen," Congratulations, you've shown there's no difference between you and the racists you've been raging about after all.

* Since then I have seen one or two memes about "Kens" or "Kevins" but nowhere near the hundreds of "Karen" memes.

Additionally, Some men will gaslight, bully, dismiss a woman for speaking up, even now. This "Karen" crap is just another way to put a woman you don't want to play scrabble with in her place.

If a man refuses to wear a mask in a public area he's just called an ***hole, but, a woman is called a Karen.  But, at the archery range where I shoot we are required by the Park Department to wear masks when not shooting. They will close us down if we do not comply with COVID restrictions, including this. As a Range volunteer I'm supposed to at least ask people if they have a mask with them. One jerk got nasty about it and tried to bully me into not saying anything. He's at least 30 years younger than me and had the gall to order me, "I told you not to talk to me." I 'reported' him to the Archery Facebook Group (not even the Park Dept.) About 20 people supported me including 3 instructors, 2 of whom are Club Board members. But, two "trolls" started in with the insults and veiled threats, even after the Head Instructor backed me and told them to behave. Among their insults was calling me a "Karen." Now, previously one of our male members (B) complained about someone else who didn't want to wear a mask.  These 'trolls' didn't have a word to say about that.  (PS: The trolls were kicked out of the group and the "I told you not to talk to me," boy was personally told by the head instructor that I was right and he was supposed to wear that mask when not shooting.

So, another confirmation that this "Karen" crap has lost its original meaning and is already being used by "the other side" to put a woman, especially an older white woman, in her place no matter what its original meaning was supposed to be.

Yes! The term "A Karen" is sexist, ageist, and truth be told, racist also! To be a Karen, you have to be female, middle aged, and white. So tell me that's not a slur! Those of us that carry that name are starting to find it exhausting, since mainstream media has picked it up as their new catchphrase.

To the bolded: no, it is not racist. Racism denotes power. You cannot be racist towards whites as the power structure is build entirely in their favor. You can prejudiced against them, but not racist. 
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chigger

Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2020, 03:26:14 pm »
Mea culpa, let me change that to prejudiced!
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holly firestorm

Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2020, 04:42:05 pm »
I posted this on my Facebook page in June: When I was young there used to be this t-shirt, "B**ch: a kind, gentle-hearted woman who's been bullied, picked on, abused and dismissed once too often." It came about because of all the misogynists who called women "b**ches" any time they 'stepped out of line' or didn't know their place. Now there's a new slang word "Karen" which is SUPPOSED to refer to anyone who thinks they're so special they matter and no one else does.  But, since I first saw it being used, I've NEVER seen if refer to a male*, anyone who isn't white, in fact, not even someone who's young.   If a male acts like a racist, he's just called a racist.  If a woman acts like a racist, she's a "racist Karen." It seems to me what that insult really means is "middle aged or older white WOMAN who doesn't know her place." Especially for all those who hate being called "snowflake" or "libertard." but call any woman you don't want to screw and who disagrees with you a "Karen," Congratulations, you've shown there's no difference between you and the racists you've been raging about after all.

* Since then I have seen one or two memes about "Kens" or "Kevins" but nowhere near the hundreds of "Karen" memes.

Additionally, Some men will gaslight, bully, dismiss a woman for speaking up, even now. This "Karen" crap is just another way to put a woman you don't want to play scrabble with in her place.

If a man refuses to wear a mask in a public area he's just called an ***hole, but, a woman is called a Karen.  But, at the archery range where I shoot we are required by the Park Department to wear masks when not shooting. They will close us down if we do not comply with COVID restrictions, including this. As a Range volunteer I'm supposed to at least ask people if they have a mask with them. One jerk got nasty about it and tried to bully me into not saying anything. He's at least 30 years younger than me and had the gall to order me, "I told you not to talk to me." I 'reported' him to the Archery Facebook Group (not even the Park Dept.) About 20 people supported me including 3 instructors, 2 of whom are Club Board members. But, two "trolls" started in with the insults and veiled threats, even after the Head Instructor backed me and told them to behave. Among their insults was calling me a "Karen." Now, previously one of our male members (B) complained about someone else who didn't want to wear a mask.  These 'trolls' didn't have a word to say about that.  (PS: The trolls were kicked out of the group and the "I told you not to talk to me," boy was personally told by the head instructor that I was right and he was supposed to wear that mask when not shooting.

So, another confirmation that this "Karen" crap has lost its original meaning and is already being used by "the other side" to put a woman, especially an older white woman, in her place no matter what its original meaning was supposed to be.

Yes! The term "A Karen" is sexist, ageist, and truth be told, racist also! To be a Karen, you have to be female, middle aged, and white. So tell me that's not a slur! Those of us that carry that name are starting to find it exhausting, since mainstream media has picked it up as their new catchphrase.

To the bolded: no, it is not racist. Racism denotes power. You cannot be racist towards whites as the power structure is build entirely in their favor. You can prejudiced against them, but not racist.

Your very political rhetoric has more holes in it than a sandwich with Swiss cheese. For one thing, I'd like to point out you can be racist against your own ethnic group. Since it's being directed at one particular race, yes, it's racist. I could go on, but, since BMB eschews biased or partisan political discussions (because they turn into arguments) I'll leave it at that. I won't be answering any attempts to do so either.
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chigger

Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2020, 05:01:15 pm »
In the long run, I think it's really shitty to co opt some ones name to "call out" a certain age, race or gender. Names DO mean something to the people that carry them. I hope that the ones that posted here and were sorry I feel this way, and only use the term lightheartedly, stop and think a little. It isn't a dumb joke anymore, and anyone that reads the news should know that. It's always Karen, anymore, for the nastiest women alive.
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PVZFan

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Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2020, 08:11:43 pm »
I posted that I've used it once and I also said I'm sorry for your experience. I likely won't use it again, but I'm also not using any phrases to couch or soften a legitimate, evenly stated request or complaint. I think the concern of being labeled has people not speaking up, in the moment, when something is wrong.


I think it started not as calling out age or race (because I have non-white friends who use it with each other) but began about entitled, aggressive behavior towards customer service personnel.


Aleko

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Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2020, 05:37:46 am »
There are plenty of names that have been ‘skunked’ by being co-opted to embody a stereotype, and no doubt there will always be new ones coined. It’s tough on all the Karens out there, but it could just as easily have been another name which would have been tough on all its unlucky owners. That’s just life.

My beef with ‘Okay, Karen’ is that, just as with ‘Okay, Boomer’, it’s used as a way of saying ‘Your opinion is worthless, and I’m going to ignore it, simply because of your age/class/ethnic origin’.   It's a double whammy of disrespect; not only does it imply that you and your views are no more than a stereotype, but that the age/class/ethnicity that you're perceived to belong to can by definition have no valid view anyway.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 06:07:19 am by Aleko »
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Wanaca

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Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2020, 08:22:49 am »
I don't use this phrase because it feels too much like a slur.  I know several nice Karens and I couldn't say it without thinking of them.  There are many trendy things that I can easily live without.  This phrase is one of them.

Luckily, the people that I come into contact with daily feel the same way.  I don't know of anyone IRL that uses this phrase.
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oogyda

Re: Okay Karen
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2020, 11:39:56 am »
Because I do have a name that ages me and I have heard my name as a descriptor (both positive and negative), I decided to look it up in the referenced Urban Dictionary.  I came across all three of these definitions:

1) Being a Dxxxxx is asking people stupid question that she should know that you won’t know but also thinks that you should know anyway because she is Dxxxxx.

2)  A friend till the end, she's got your back no matter what. A constant source of intense laughter. Speaker of the greatest smart-ass comments ever heard. An extremely beautiful person on the outside. Has an even more impressive inner beauty (if you are open-minded enough to look) Has more strength than all previous heavy-weight champions combined.

3)  Basically don't be a Dxxxxx means don't be a **** or **** whatever name you please.

What I get is that it's not a reliable source. 
Anybody can put in a definition. 
There is no need for proof or references.
It's an entertainment website not a reference source.
It's heavily populated by rude, insulting and politically incorrect statements meant as jokes.

In other words, no one will convince me of anything using that as their resource.

******************************************************************

As to the original subject.  Looking beyond Urban Dictionary, I so understand the use of the name "Karen" has become very insulting whether one is including all or just some of the connotations listed.  I wish I had something to say to Chigger and others that would make them feel less attacked, but I understand why they do and I sympathize with them.  I don't know what I can do about it besides not use the term myself and not let it be used in my presence. 

I think that almost any name or word can be used in an entirely offensive way and it's upsetting when something like that catches on.  It takes me back to the days of ..............  Nope...not going to start listing those and give them credence.






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