Author Topic: Too expensive to replace (Read 2354 times)

Kimpossible · « **Reply #15 on:** August 18, 2020, 07:47:08 am »

Lisa knew OP would be coming over after work. I have to assume (correct me please) that she knows where OP works, and she'd know that OP follows a dress code. One might not expect a Chanel suit, but one should expect really nice, dressy clothing. Lisa knows her dog jumps. She knows OP is coming over. Lisa should have done something to prevent the dog from jumping on the OP. Under those circumstances, Lisa should at the very least offered to have the item cleaned.

Hmmm · « **Reply #16 on:** August 18, 2020, 08:51:04 am »

Quote from: Xainte on August 17, 2020, 07:25:52 pm

I would never ask for money for an honest to goodness accident - like if something was spilled and it stained but I feel it's different if it's a failure to control an animal. I kind of think I would wimp out of actually asking of reimbursement but I would be pretty peevish if they didn't at least apologize and offer to replace.

Snip

I had the initial thought too, but really, there are so many ways accidents can occur because people are careless. I've watched a sister sit down in a recently painted deck chair that the owner forgot to mention was recently painted until she sat down. I've had to have a crew come back out and smooth a new driveway because a parent was not paying attention when their child went running around the barrier up the driveway (the barrier wasn't there to just keep cars out). I've had a cup of coffee spilled down light grey pants because the co-worker set the cup on the edge of the conference table. That last one resulted in me loosing the pants and having to go buy another pair before going to a dinner that night.

For me, carelessness is carelessness, whether it is the momentary lapse of controlling your dog or getting to engaged in a conversation and not paying attention to your coffee cup placement.

Jem · « **Reply #17 on:** August 18, 2020, 09:40:02 am »

Quote from: Hmmm on August 18, 2020, 08:51:04 am

Quote from: Xainte on August 17, 2020, 07:25:52 pm
I would never ask for money for an honest to goodness accident - like if something was spilled and it stained but I feel it's different if it's a failure to control an animal. I kind of think I would wimp out of actually asking of reimbursement but I would be pretty peevish if they didn't at least apologize and offer to replace.

Snip

I had the initial thought too, but really, there are so many ways accidents can occur because people are careless. I've watched a sister sit down in a recently painted deck chair that the owner forgot to mention was recently painted until she sat down. I've had to have a crew come back out and smooth a new driveway because a parent was not paying attention when their child went running around the barrier up the driveway (the barrier wasn't there to just keep cars out). I've had a cup of coffee spilled down light grey pants because the co-worker set the cup on the edge of the conference table. That last one resulted in me loosing the pants and having to go buy another pair before going to a dinner that night.

For me, carelessness is carelessness, whether it is the momentary lapse of controlling your dog or getting to engaged in a conversation and not paying attention to your coffee cup placement.

I understand what you are saying Hmmm, but I think what Xainte is saying (or at least this is how I feel about it) is that damage that happens because of failure to control an animal is far more predictable than garden variety momentary carelessness.

Xainte · « **Reply #18 on:** August 18, 2020, 04:00:13 pm »

Quote from: Jem on August 18, 2020, 09:40:02 am

Quote from: Hmmm on August 18, 2020, 08:51:04 am
Quote from: Xainte on August 17, 2020, 07:25:52 pm
I would never ask for money for an honest to goodness accident - like if something was spilled and it stained but I feel it's different if it's a failure to control an animal. I kind of think I would wimp out of actually asking of reimbursement but I would be pretty peevish if they didn't at least apologize and offer to replace.

Snip

I had the initial thought too, but really, there are so many ways accidents can occur because people are careless. I've watched a sister sit down in a recently painted deck chair that the owner forgot to mention was recently painted until she sat down. I've had to have a crew come back out and smooth a new driveway because a parent was not paying attention when their child went running around the barrier up the driveway (the barrier wasn't there to just keep cars out). I've had a cup of coffee spilled down light grey pants because the co-worker set the cup on the edge of the conference table. That last one resulted in me loosing the pants and having to go buy another pair before going to a dinner that night.

For me, carelessness is carelessness, whether it is the momentary lapse of controlling your dog or getting to engaged in a conversation and not paying attention to your coffee cup placement.

I understand what you are saying Hmmm, but I think what Xainte is saying (or at least this is how I feel about it) is that damage that happens because of failure to control an animal is far more predictable than garden variety momentary carelessness.

Right. People know if their dogs are jumpers. Lisa bloody well knows it. I don't think they get to pretend it was an accident. Luckily the blouse is handwashable so I didn't incur the expense of a dry cleaner.

Hmmm · « **Reply #19 on:** August 18, 2020, 04:27:32 pm »

Quote from: Xainte on August 18, 2020, 04:00:13 pm

Quote from: Jem on August 18, 2020, 09:40:02 am
Quote from: Hmmm on August 18, 2020, 08:51:04 am
Quote from: Xainte on August 17, 2020, 07:25:52 pm
I would never ask for money for an honest to goodness accident - like if something was spilled and it stained but I feel it's different if it's a failure to control an animal. I kind of think I would wimp out of actually asking of reimbursement but I would be pretty peevish if they didn't at least apologize and offer to replace.

Snip

I had the initial thought too, but really, there are so many ways accidents can occur because people are careless. I've watched a sister sit down in a recently painted deck chair that the owner forgot to mention was recently painted until she sat down. I've had to have a crew come back out and smooth a new driveway because a parent was not paying attention when their child went running around the barrier up the driveway (the barrier wasn't there to just keep cars out). I've had a cup of coffee spilled down light grey pants because the co-worker set the cup on the edge of the conference table. That last one resulted in me loosing the pants and having to go buy another pair before going to a dinner that night.

For me, carelessness is carelessness, whether it is the momentary lapse of controlling your dog or getting to engaged in a conversation and not paying attention to your coffee cup placement.

I understand what you are saying Hmmm, but I think what Xainte is saying (or at least this is how I feel about it) is that damage that happens because of failure to control an animal is far more predictable than garden variety momentary carelessness.
Right. People know if their dogs are jumpers. Lisa bloody well knows it. I don't think they get to pretend it was an accident. Luckily the blouse is handwashable so I didn't incur the expense of a dry cleaner.

My sister and husband have a jumper and yes, they bloody well know it, and they both know I do not like being jumped on. But the probability of their jumper damaging my clothes is pretty small or causing injury is pretty small. So those animal owners know there is a moderate to high level of chance their jumper will annoy a guest but not a high level that damage will occur in my opinion. Just like in my example, an adult knows there is a high probability of a cup following if set on the corner of a table.

Liability to me is all about probability and expected impact.

Jem · « **Reply #20 on:** August 18, 2020, 08:15:49 pm »

I actually think being jumped on can be “damage” in and of itself! I’ve known people who have been injured in various ways when dogs jumped on them. One friend of my moms actually sued and ended up settling for what I understand to be a lot of money because she hurt her knee when a neighbors dog jumped on her.

Dazi · « **Reply #21 on:** August 18, 2020, 08:41:52 pm »

Quote from: Jem on August 18, 2020, 08:15:49 pm

I actually think being jumped on can be “damage” in and of itself! I’ve known people who have been injured in various ways when dogs jumped on them. One friend of my moms actually sued and ended up settling for what I understand to be a lot of money because she hurt her knee when a neighbors dog jumped on her.

Yep. I've had horrible scratches and bruises on me and threw out my back once because a jumper caught me off guard.

A friend of mine got knocked down and broke her tailbone. She ended up having to sue the homeowner's insurance company to cover her medical bills and time off work.

Hmmm · « **Reply #22 on:** August 19, 2020, 09:10:00 am »

Quote from: Jem on August 18, 2020, 08:15:49 pm

I actually think being jumped on can be “damage” in and of itself! I’ve known people who have been injured in various ways when dogs jumped on them. One friend of my moms actually sued and ended up settling for what I understand to be a lot of money because she hurt her knee when a neighbors dog jumped on her.

Yes, I'm well aware that people have been injured by jumping dogs. I am discussing probabilities. The millions a day instances of a dog jumping vs the number of injuries or other damage caused when it occurs is relatively low. In my lifetime, I've probably been jumped on by other people's dogs at least 100 times. I've never been injured.

Jumping dogs are very annoying and owner's should stop allowing it. I have very strong opinions on this to the point of having a slight rift with my sister all the way to stopping going to a good friend's home because she and her family did not control their dog.

But I stand by my position that a dog owner would not assume there is a high probability of their jumping dog causing damage or injury. There is a higher probability of it causing anxiety, fear or annoyance.

Xainte · « **Reply #23 on:** August 19, 2020, 09:30:35 am »

Scratches and fouled up clothes are actually pretty common - I think people brush it off and pretend it's OK because they don't want a scene. If you have a big dog with dirty paws and claws I don't see how anyone can say they don't anticipate that damage and minor injury is a distinct possibility. Not an inevitability to be sure but certainly not a remote occurrence.

Aleko · « **Reply #24 on:** August 19, 2020, 12:37:41 pm »

Quote

Not an inevitability to be sure but certainly not a remote occurrence.

Maybe not an absolute 100% inevitability. But if you have a big dog with dirty paws that is routinely allowed to jump at people, it’s so strong and so foreseeable a probability that it will eventually hurt someone / damage their clothes / break their spectacles, that you should consider yourself responsible if it does. And even if you don’t, the law probably will.

TootsNYC · « **Reply #25 on:** August 19, 2020, 03:09:19 pm »

Quote from: Kimpossible on August 18, 2020, 07:47:08 am

Lisa knew OP would be coming over after work. I have to assume (correct me please) that she knows where OP works, and she'd know that OP follows a dress code. One might not expect a Chanel suit, but one should expect really nice, dressy clothing. Lisa knows her dog jumps. She knows OP is coming over. Lisa should have done something to prevent the dog from jumping on the OP. Under those circumstances, Lisa should at the very least offered to have the item cleaned.

No matter who is coming over, Lisa should have retrained her dog to keep it jumping on people.

I too wouldn't expect someone to replace my clothing, but I'd be pissed at her inability to train her dog, and at her cavalier attitude about catering to him.

Quote

whether it is the momentary lapse of controlling your dog

The thing here is, that's not a momentary lapse.
So it wouldn't change my opinion on being reimbursed. But I'd be salty about it, and I wouldn't have any qualms about feeling that way.
And if she'd been more apologetic, or if I'd had any evidence that she generally tried to teach her dog to not jump, that would mollify me alot. But it doesn't seem to have been the case.

Jem · « **Reply #26 on:** August 19, 2020, 03:33:44 pm »

Quote from: Hmmm on August 18, 2020, 04:27:32 pm

But the probability of their jumper damaging my clothes is pretty small or causing injury is pretty small. So those animal owners know there is a moderate to high level of chance their jumper will annoy a guest but not a high level that damage will occur in my opinion. Just like in my example, an adult knows there is a high probability of a cup following if set on the corner of a table.

Liability to me is all about probability and expected impact.

Regarding the red bold....I think that annoying a guest is damage in and of itself, and would even posit that it can be "high level" damage to a relationship. We may be talking on separate planes (whether there is legal liability to pay damages or whether there is "damage" in a more general sense).

TootsNYC · « **Reply #27 on:** August 19, 2020, 04:07:34 pm »

I agree that damage can take many forms; it's not only about the money.

Hmmm · « **Reply #28 on:** August 20, 2020, 08:57:33 am »

Quote from: Jem on August 19, 2020, 03:33:44 pm

Quote from: Hmmm on August 18, 2020, 04:27:32 pm
But the probability of their jumper damaging my clothes is pretty small or causing injury is pretty small. So those animal owners know there is a moderate to high level of chance their jumper will annoy a guest but not a high level that damage will occur in my opinion. Just like in my example, an adult knows there is a high probability of a cup following if set on the corner of a table.

Liability to me is all about probability and expected impact.

Regarding the red bold....I think that annoying a guest is damage in and of itself, and would even posit that it can be "high level" damage to a relationship. We may be talking on separate planes (whether there is legal liability to pay damages or whether there is "damage" in a more general sense).

I think we are.

Every action (or inaction) has an impact and usually some type of risk associated with it.

Example:
If I was to choose to only cut our lawn every 3 weeks, it would become overgrown and "unsightly" compared to our neighbors lawn. I know my choice will most likely annoy my neighbors but that is a risk/liability I am will to accept because I just don't care that much about my neighbors' opinions.

However, if my lawn becomes overgrown, it could hide one of the sprinkler heads near a walking path between our driveway and lawn which can become a tripping hazard, but hey, I know where it is and no one ever really walks across my yard anyway to my driveway but me. Until the mail carrier decides to cut across my lawn, is looking at the mail, stumbles off the walking path, trips, and breaks her wrist. I'll most likely be liable for her medical bills and I would be morally responsible for creating an environment that could cause injury. But the probability that the mail carrier would decide to change her pattern of carrying mail and stumble upon the only sprinkle head that was hidden would have been such a low probability I might not even had thought of this potential risk.

In this case, we know the dog owner has already decided to accept the risk/liability of annoying her friends. How do we know? Because she didn't train her dogs to not jump! She viewed the work to teach them to not jump as much higher cost to her than her fear damaging friendships. It won't be until the cost of having a jumping dog is greater for her that she'll start controlling the behavior.

But she's not yet encountered those consequences. The probability of the dog causing damage that would cause her to be liable financially for damage is low so it is probably not a factor she evaluates when she is sub-consciously analyzing her actions.

Elmore 2.0 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 20, 2020, 09:52:23 pm »

Would you feel capable of going back to your friend and ask if she's willing to put the dog up before you come over in the future? Maybe phrase it like "I'm sure you didn't know, but that would have been very bad if the dog ruined my blouse while doing you a favor."

If you can something like that without an angry or accusatory tone, she may start doing that.

Bad Manners and Brimstone

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Author Topic: Too expensive to replace (Read 2354 times)

Kimpossible

Re: Too expensive to replace

Hmmm

Re: Too expensive to replace

Jem

Re: Too expensive to replace

Xainte

Re: Too expensive to replace

Hmmm

Re: Too expensive to replace

Jem

Re: Too expensive to replace

Dazi

Re: Too expensive to replace

Hmmm

Re: Too expensive to replace

Xainte

Re: Too expensive to replace

Aleko

Re: Too expensive to replace

TootsNYC

Re: Too expensive to replace

Jem

Re: Too expensive to replace

TootsNYC

Re: Too expensive to replace

Hmmm

Re: Too expensive to replace

Elmore 2.0

Re: Too expensive to replace